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    Bitcoin Daily Discussion, December 16, 2019

    December 16, 2019

    Bitcoin Daily Discussion, December 16, 2019

    Daily Discussion, December 16, 2019

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 11:00 PM PST

    Please utilize this sticky thread for all general Bitcoin discussions! If you see posts on the front page or /r/Bitcoin/new which are better suited for this daily discussion thread, please help out by directing the OP to this thread instead. Thank you!

    If you don't get an answer to your question, you can try phrasing it differently or commenting again tomorrow.

    We have a couple chat rooms now!

    Please check the previous discussion thread for unanswered questions.

    submitted by /u/rBitcoinMod
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    Me with the glow of the computer screen displaying my wallets. Buy Bitcoin.

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 11:20 AM PST

    Bitcoin vs Fiat Currency

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 05:08 PM PST

    FYI - Mullvad VPN now supports the Bech32 address format whilst paying for their service. They also offer 10% off when you pay with Bitcoin.

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 11:40 PM PST

    Some very important points that most people do not understand about Bitcoin

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 11:40 AM PST

    Point 1)

    Most people do not understand that you can't send money over internet, but only information. Bitcoin is the first digital settlement layer.

    When I send a picture to someone on Facebook messenger, I don't actually send a picture. I send information about the pictures structure, and the picture gets restructured on the client side (the cellphone) of the user I send it to. Copy of the information is being sent, not the picture itself. So you can't send money over internet, it is not possible, only information.

    If I have a bank account at some bank, and I send $50 dollars to another person in the same bank by using the banks website, then a transaction happens between two people within the same infrastructure, which is the banks back-end system and database. So the banks system just subtracts $50 dollars from one person and adds $50 dollars to another person. But no money has moved, only information has been edited. But if I send money to someone that uses another Bank, then this bank has its own infrastructure which is independent of the first. So Bank1 tells Bank2 that they have a user that wants to send money to a user of the other bank. So Bank1 subtracts $50 from User1, and Bank2 adds $50 to User2, but now Bank1 owes Bank2 $50, why? Because you can't send money over internet. So they have to settle the difference between them with some kinds of a settlement system, (cash, gold or a third party like a central bank).

    With Bitcoin, because of how the system works, it is almost as if you can send value over internet for the first time, even though you don't really send value, you still send information, but since the infrastructure is global, it is like the first example, it is as if the world has (one large bank infrastructure), that is fully automated and which no one controls.

    This alone makes Bitcoin extremely valuable, because it is a trust less digital settlement layer which is extremely secure and not dependent on one particular nation or organisation.

    Point 2)

    There can never be more than 21 million Bitcoin. This is very hard for people to grasp. Because what do you mean there can never be more than 21 million bitcoin? It sounds like a game, such a scam... People do not understand that Bitcoin is not normal software. In normal software the developers can change the code as they want and publish the code when they want. They do not understand that Bitcoin is a software that is not like a normal software. You can't actually change the number even if the number is programmed in. Which of-course most people will deny, because it makes no sense for most people. They do not understand that even though it is theoretically possible to change it, it is practically almost impossible. It is theoretically possible for me to convince half of Sweden to burn half of their money, but practically impossible. Just because something is theoretically possible, doesn't mean that it will happen within a time frame, or even in your lifetime. In order for the 21 million supply to change, most people in the Bitcoin community needs to agree on it, which is practically impossible. Miners have to change to the new protocol and so on. Not going to happen.

    Point 3)

    People think that $100,000 bitcoin is wishful thinking and that there is not enough money in the world for Bitcoin to be worth millions of dollars. Which I can assure you is false. Bitcoin can even be worth $50 million dollars per coin, which would make 2 satoshi 1 dollar. Even if one Bitcoin transaction would cost 10 000 Satoshi. You might say, that's not possible, whats the point if one transaction is so expensive. Again, you don't need to actually do a transfer of money, as in the first example of point 1, virtual transactions on bank level can happen, or on Coinbase. You can send 100 satoshi to someone and pay 1 satoshi in fee "on the bank level", not on chain, banks or exchanges then will settle the difference as they want. At least with Bitcoin you have the option to be you own bank, even if that will cost you more, you still have the option. This is already happening in front of your eyes. Banks like Dutch ING, Deutsche bank, even exchanges want to operate as banks. This is already happening and it is the correct move forwards, a mix between the legacy banking system and cryptocurrencies. Most people are too lazy and stupid to operate like us, it is a fact well known.

    In terms of the price, money inflow is not the same as market cap. For Bitcoin to have 21 trillion market cap, Bitcoin does not need 21 trillion of money inflow. Bitcoin price is dependent on market sentiment, if the market sentiment is such that very few people want to sell their coins because the price keeps going up then you might have 100x market cap of the money inflow. So 1 billion USD in money inflow translates to 100 billion USD in market cap. The multiplier can be 10x, 2x or 50x, all depends on market sentiment and time period. So an inflow of 10 trillion USD in 10 years might lead to 100 trillion USD market cap of BTC and 5 million USD per Bitcoin.

    Bitcoin value have no roof, the price might actually just keep going up and up and up and up and up. We have never had something that is absolutely scarce, and global, and seen as an alternative form of money, when the rest of the world keeps bubbling up. There is no limit on the BTC price because the whole world works with a bubbly system, and the way Bitcoin is price discovered, is a guaranteed insane BTC price in the future. Even $100 million USD per Bitcoin in 50 years before I am dead is possible.

    Point 4)

    Fiat does not need to die, and Bitcoin does not need to take over in order for Bitcoin to have "ridiculous price". No financial crisis is needed. Actually what you want is things to just continue as they have done in the last 10 years. No too extreme events. Just "small events" here and there. You can't change human nature, it is inevitable. Bitcoin is so ingrained into our world that there is no way back. There will be people with whole Bitcoin, and people without. Just like people with gold and stock investments and real estate, and people without those things. No insane events, this is all normal.

    Point 5)

    Bitcoin has won as the financial cryptocurrency. No flippening will happen. The only flippening will be with gold and fiat currencies. If I wanted to, I could have developed a system like PayPal in 1 month time, and it would be able to do 5000 transactions per second because I would use MySQL and SSD, but no one would use my service because they would not trust me because they have no idea who I am and what my service is, and there is no one to send money too, so the network is not there. Bitcoin has won because security and network effect is way more important than transactions per second. Transactions per second will be dealt with on bank level, exchange level, or layer 2 solutions. This is already clear to me. Bitcoin has won.

    Point 6)

    In order to understand Bitcoin and what will happen in the future, you have to be able to see things that are not in front of you. You can't compare Bitcoin to Tulip mania, or even Gold. Because something like Bitcoin has never existed before and you have to think about it's properties and try to understand it with human nature and with how the world works and how everything keeps increasing, and Bitcoin is the thing that does not increase in supply. You will eventually accept the unnatural thought of Bitcoin never stopping going up in value, which is something that is hard to come to terms with, because it feels unnatural, "and it could not possibly be so".

    EDIT:

    Point 7)

    The Gini coefficient of Bitcoin is not a big deal. I used to think that it was unfair that some people had 1,000 BTC, 10,000 BTC, or even 50,000 BTC. And I was afraid that they might dump their coins into the market and crash it. I have now realised that these people are smart people and they think like me, and they won't just dump their whole BTC holding on the market as that might be a very bad move for them. It is like when a majority holder of a company, like Jeff Bezos and Amazon, understands that he can't sell all of his shares in one go as that would effect Amazon stock value too much and would not be smart. It is best to sell when the price goes up, but then when they sell the BTC will just be eaten up by other people, and they will be at a loss in the longer term. And the other thing is that perhaps there is no other smart place to put that fiat money, Bitcoin might just be the best place to keep those amounts of money. Someone with a very large holding has two options. He can either sell his BTC, in which case the price would go down but the Bitcoin would be spread out between potentially thousands of new users, or he might decide to never sell. If he decides to never sell, it is as if those Bitcoins are lost forever and that is good for the Bitcoin price and Bitcoin in general. If he decides to sell then Bitcoin will be divided more equally among many users which is also a good thing for Bitcoin because that increases the network effect, and after he sells he no longer has the power to drive the price down, but now he sits on a very large fiat holding, he might even buy back at a higher price and drive the price higher. I know that if I had 10,000 BTC, I would sell 1,000 BTC and buy a house and a car and whatever I wanted, and sell another 1,000 BTC to diversify into some other assets. And keep 8,000 BTC because I don't know of anywhere else to put that kind of money into good work. I believe in Bitcoin so as an investor it makes sense to keep it here. I probably would never sell because I would never need anything else after the initial 1,000 BTC sell.

    Bitcoin is like a black hole that sucks in the Earths monetary resources over time. Most people that bought really early and were smart enough to hold all the way to these prices will only sell what they need to sell and keep the rest in BTC. Some of them might want to speculate and try to time the ATH, only to buy back in with most of the fiat they sold. Which means that even if money goes out of the market, it only goes out of the market temporarily, only to get back in at hopefully lower prices. And so the market grows, and grows and grows over time.

    submitted by /u/21btc
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    SLP134 Rusty Russell – Lightning Multi Part Payments

    Posted: 16 Dec 2019 01:16 AM PST

    Mathematically speaking, #bitcoin, given its limited supply, has unlimited growth potential against fiat. Why? It has less to do with bitcoin, but because fiat has an unlimited supply.

    Posted: 16 Dec 2019 02:55 AM PST

    Strap on your strapons guys, were are going to the moon!

    submitted by /u/Bitcoin_to_da_Moon
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    RaspiBolt2 just landed: easy hands-on guide to set up Bitcoin / Lightning / full Electrum server on a Raspberry Pi

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 03:06 PM PST

    The mainstream media’s lack of understanding about Bitcoin is incredible

    Posted: 16 Dec 2019 04:06 AM PST

    Within a decade, governments, banks, and corporations went from laughing at the idea of bitcoin to trying to imitate it. That should blow your mind.

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 05:26 AM PST

    We Can't Negotiate With Regulators

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 08:27 AM PST

    It's becoming increasingly clear that US regulators are hostile to the space. One of the bigger issues is of course rehypothecation and watering down the supply, as I was listening to caitlin long and saifdean explain on a podcast just yesterday. However, what I also want to articulate and explain in this post is that the reason , the only reason the CME and Baakt are such a threat to bitcoin is because artificial supply *for institutions* not regular people reduces the demand for physical bitcoin by the rich who would be the bulk demand.

    ​

    So really what is happening is that bitcoin isn't actually integrated into the real financial economy. And the US regulator know this and are hostile to it. They want geofencing RSK contracts and backdoor acts for Bank Secrecy Act, they want their own nodes on the network, and they want paper bitcoin. They want the bitcoin economy largely custodial and intermediated and backdoored and rehypothecated, so that no real aspect of global corporate and capitalist financial needs are driven *outside US and wallstreet control* *on physical bitcoin* *on a non swift network*.

    ​

    They are going to keep attacking the network like this until we take crypto outside of that system entirely by creating the interchain. The backbone of the interchain is an unseizable liquidity network that cannot be shut down.

    ​

    I just saw a tweet by a guy who worked for Duestch Bank who was a senior accountant who resigned due to fraud and corruption he reported at DB, and then the guy he reported it to, became a head enforcer at the SEC, and ruined his life, and he had to expatriate outside the US. We are dealing with financial terrorists. Jay Clayton is a financial terrorist, these instituions are captured. They will break this market and treat it like an interest rate scam that enables their private equity groups and commissions while suppressing the price down to extreme lows if they are allowed to dictate the integration into the global economy.

    ​

    You guys have to wake up and realize that we have no choice, we MUST build an interchain DeFI global system outside the US financial system. A interchain is comprised of SPV's, full nodes, virtual machine decentralized servers, atomic swaps, lightning swaps, second layer privacy, anonymous nodes, anonymous VM nodes, fully interoperability for most major chains and er-20, agnostic. Not a project or a company, or a token, but the full backbone, an interchain internet 4.0 for finance.

    And then of course you're going to have to fight them in the high courts. European and American youth are going to have to slowly take over the courts and legislation systems and impose democracy onto an out of control financial and military machine run by the old and the rich who have acted unconstitutionally for too long. We aren't headed towards democracy, the centralized amazon run internet and bank secrecy act and war on terror are being used to develop the most ponopitcon style form of fiat debt perpetual war slavery style system and austerity and invasion of financial freedom that anyone has experienced so far in the west. That's why the economies of the west are slowly crushing the middle and lower classes. These ultra rich international 1%ers are killing the western republics and slowly pushing total tyranny.

    submitted by /u/samdane7777
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    Made my first BTC using r/jobs4bitcoins !! Not as much as some, but I'm super excited. For $100, only like $0.20 in fees which is so much better than PayPal, etc. AND it's available on Sunday! Now looking on Haven for what I can spend on Christmas presents haha. Yes, this is a better system vs banks

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 08:01 PM PST

    Everything You Need to Know About Trading Binance Coin

    Posted: 16 Dec 2019 04:18 AM PST

    Bitmain Rival MicroBT's Founder Arrested in China for Alleged Embezzlement - CoinDesk

    Posted: 16 Dec 2019 02:42 AM PST

    Only 151 days left - halving soon

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 12:08 PM PST

    Bakkt Physical Bitcoin Futures End Up Being About The Same As CME Despite The Hype

    Posted: 16 Dec 2019 03:46 AM PST

    In the current month, more than 14,000,000 USD have been traded in Venezuela using LocalBitcoin (Mostly Bolivares to BTC and BTC to Bolivares), in a country where minimum monthly wage is around 3 USD, that is an important number. Venezuela is the 1st in LBTC volume in SouthAmerica (Colombia is 2nd)

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 06:29 AM PST

    Hey guys, Venezuelan "living" in Venezuela. You can check my post history if this is the first time you read about me.

    That amount is only the one reported by https://www.usefultulips.org/Latin%20America_Page.html using as source ONLY LocalBitcoin. There are a few other exchanges that can make the volume higher.

    Here in Venezuela situation is really hard, some people dont believe that amount is the minimum wage. I work and earn more than that (anyway, the amount is really low, I'm sure with that amount I would be living in the streets in Colombia, Peru or Panama for example), usually get some donations from redditors and do some freelancing work (translating mostly) and it is really hard to keep up daily.

    Take for example my parents both are retired high schoool teachers, adding all the income they have they barely reach 20 USD per month (each one). My father has an old 2002 car, the transmission got busted, we are stimating a 300-500 USD repair... How could they do? Public transport service sucks or doesnt exist, that is one a example of what is happening here and this is not a medical case. I know there are worse cases. After all the work they do, I mosly have to help them but food and everything.....

    Minimum wage (which is earned by a big chuck of the population, not like other countries) is 150.000 Bs. wage (3 USD) + 150.000 Bs. food bonus (3 USD) PER MONTH.

    Biggest bank note is 50,000 Bs. which is around 1 USD. You need to use debit and credit, bank transfer, cryptos and USD to pay anything.

    This after 5 zeroes were shaved from the currency less than a year ago and 3 zeroes more 12 years ago. So that banknote would be 5,000,000,000,000 Bs.

    There is a department store (Maybe like Walmart?) that officially accepts cryptos as a way of payment https://www.diariobitcoin.com/index.php/2019/04/29/traki-la-tienda-por-departamento-venezolana-cuenta-por-que-acepta-criptomonedas/

    Here you can see:

    https://www.diariobitcoin.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/image-2019-04-26-2.jpg

    (POS is by Cryptobuyer pay)

    Sources:

    https://coin.dance/volume/localbitcoins/VES/BTC

    https://www.usefultulips.org/Latin%20America_Page.html

    https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-venezuela-cafe-con-leche-index/

    Official rate (Venezuelan Central Bank http://bcv.org.ve/ ) is 46.304 Bs. (Bolivares, national currency) per each USD. Street rate is almost the same.

    https://dolarsatoshi.com/

    AMA!

    submitted by /u/WorkingLime
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    What’s the Best Way to Drive Bitcoin Adoption?

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 10:56 PM PST

    Do you think giveaways are a good option? What can be the others?

    submitted by /u/mirrasel
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    At @Visa for a full day of Bitcoin and Lightning!

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 07:17 AM PST

    Bank of Canada Governor Stephen S. Poloz Mentions Bitcoin, Libra & Digital Currencies - Dec 12, 2019

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 12:24 PM PST

    Is it a good idea to invest in bitcoin right now and keep it on my Blockchain wallet?

    Posted: 16 Dec 2019 01:39 AM PST

    Note: I am not looking for trades here. If you message for trades, you will be ignored. I'm just looking for general information.

    submitted by /u/abdullahmnsr2
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    Me: Minding my business when the 2020 bitcoin bull run starts... ��

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 09:52 AM PST

    I'm doing a survey for my final thesis on crypto currencies !

    Posted: 16 Dec 2019 03:09 AM PST

    Good morning, everyone!

    As part of my end-of-year thesis at the University of Brussels, I am studying the ethical considerations raised by the use of crypto currencies and their blockchain. I would like to know the concerns but also the hopes that crypto currencies raise among their users.

    You would be very helpful to me in my research if you could answer these two questions on the Google Form below.

    Have a nice day mate ! :)

    https://forms.gle/P9DBoLPkmysnuvfd8

    submitted by /u/Jean_Etoile
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    Mind blowing..

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 02:09 PM PST

    Bitcoin will potentially grow to become the most liquid, saleable and transportable asset on earth while simultaneously being the asset with the least counterparty risk, least default risk and highest level of scarcity on earth.

    Humanity has never before had an asset that has all of these properties simultaneously. Not even gold can compare.

    This fact continues to blow my mind every single day.

    submitted by /u/slvbtc
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    CNN: Cryptocurrency tycoon died leaving $145m in limbo. Now lawyers seek exhumation to check it's really him

    Posted: 15 Dec 2019 05:52 AM PST
    Read more
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