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    Bitcoin Daily Discussion, October 07, 2019

    October 07, 2019

    Bitcoin Daily Discussion, October 07, 2019

    Daily Discussion, October 07, 2019

    Posted: 07 Oct 2019 12:00 AM PDT

    Please utilize this sticky thread for all general Bitcoin discussions! If you see posts on the front page or /r/Bitcoin/new which are better suited for this daily discussion thread, please help out by directing the OP to this thread instead. Thank you!

    If you don't get an answer to your question, you can try phrasing it differently or commenting again tomorrow.

    We have a couple chat rooms now!

    Please check the previous discussion thread for unanswered questions.

    submitted by /u/rBitcoinMod
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    Thailand Taxi driver sick of corruption experimenting with bitcoin. This is so cool!

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 07:35 PM PDT

    Wall of coins scammed me!!!!! Do not use this service. I have a 1700$ order that has not been filled and now they are refusing to fulfill the order unless I “update my previous Reddit post”.

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 06:57 PM PDT

    Do not use wall of coins!!!!! Unless you want to wait 60 days to receive you're coins that they are holding and have there CEO Robert tell you that they will only put "additional resources towards my order, only if I update my Reddit post saying they have fuffilled it" he pretty much gave me an ultimatum and now is denying it. There support team is incompetent and will not answer me truthfully. Might as well use local btc or btc atm. Be careful if you decide to use the service. They say "it's anonymous" but then make you send selfies of you holding you're reciept. Then they say you "lost the recipes and it's all you're fault" even though there support team told me I would not have to send any additional selfies....that was before they required me to send pictures of my face before even thinking about releasing my coins. Now there saying I have to wait no matter what I do. Terrible company with an ever worse ceo who thinks he is the coolest guy in the world. News flash Robert....you're not that cool and you're company sucks!!!!! I guess now I just have to wait 60 days before they drop my coins even though support told me I would have the coins last week.

    submitted by /u/king_robot_man
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    I know what I am going to watch in the plane today.

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 05:53 PM PDT

    Bitcoin's Average Monthly Returns

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 11:57 PM PDT

    A flowchart to help you decide if you should run a Bitcoin full node

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 08:09 PM PDT

    Wild Speculation: Brexit will be a catalyst for the next rally.

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 11:09 PM PDT

    October 31st is literally days away.

    submitted by /u/ShitShulginSays
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    Square Blocks Payments for Coffee Vendor because They Sell Cuban Coffee

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 08:43 PM PDT

    Is your fiat currency accessible? Billions of people in India and Hong Kong would no longer look at Fiat & Banks the same way

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 10:21 AM PDT

    Bitcoin project management ELI5

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 10:26 PM PDT

    Please ELI5 some questions that have been bugging me:

    How is the code maintained to ensure no centralization of control?

    If there is a security issue, who will make the call to fix, decide when the fix is ready to roll out to miners and nodes?

    If there are conflicting, divergent views on new features, how is the conflict managed?

    If a new feature or modification will result in a hard fork, but some developers reject the new feature and do not want any changes, does that make that camp the original Bitcoin, even if they are a minority while the majority forks into an alt coin?

    Is it possible for, say government operatives to infiltrate the developers, slowly gaining in numbers until they become the majority and take over the project?

    submitted by /u/paullampard
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    5min survey for investing!

    Posted: 07 Oct 2019 02:42 AM PDT

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    submitted by /u/monchan2020
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    Good discussion about PMC Bank Scandal, account holders get savings blocked. Bitcoin fixes this.

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 10:16 PM PDT

    NYT getting it wrong...

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 10:39 PM PDT

    What happen to my invests if bitcoin prices drop to negative?

    Posted: 07 Oct 2019 02:58 AM PDT

    As the title said,

    Let say I invested $25 in bitcoins, and if bitcoin drop below to nagative

    Do I losses more than $25?

    Thank

    submitted by /u/rrexau
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    Watching the market and expecting rough waters, I made my first BitCoin purchase today.

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 07:43 AM PDT

    I am extremely late to the party (there is much I still do not understand), but in looking at the global economy, I was looking for safer havens for investment. Normally when economic storms hit, I seek investments in indexes, money markets, t-bills, metals, and cash (diversification). This is the first time I have purchased BTC. Thank you to you braver souls who paved the way. Hope to learn much from you all.

    submitted by /u/LostMyPoeticLicense
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    Discuss: Issues with Storing Bitcoins in long term.

    Posted: 07 Oct 2019 03:30 AM PDT

    First: Hodler here. Very bullish. Hodling for a decade more, not selling except for food n bills. I 100% agree with the economics of bitcoin.

    Something that's not discussed much. IMHO storing BTC safely long term is challenging. Unlike keeping cash, gold at home. Bitcoin has a much larger attack area.

    Possible issues not in cash/gold:

    1. Forget password for encrypted seed or wallet file
    2. Forget location of seed on paper, usb with seed. Part of multi sig. Misplaced, thrown by family, help
    3. Seed incorrectly written.
    4. Wrong seed written, when multiple wallets. People have lost BTC this way.
    5. Only private key written. Not realised it changes after a transaction.
    6. Fire, water damage. Same issue with cash.
    7. Bad ink fades away.
    8. Death.

    None of the above exist with gold and one with cash. With death there are inheritances laws if the gold is in bank. At home, people at home know where gold is, no chance of misplacing or forgetting.

    Haven't even started with theft:
    1. Seed phrases online! dropbox, gmail, PC
    2. BTC in online wallets!
    3. Bad marriage. Spouse can take seed away in shoe sole. Plausible deny. No way to proof. Gold, cash are harder. and much harder with larger amounts. Gold is also kept in bank lockers by some.
    4. Any family member can copy seed, use it in future if things go bad.
    5. Fights in family - destroy seed in rage.
    6. Tampered wallet software, hardware wallets.
    7. malicious browser extensions
    8. Hardware keyloggers, Virus, compromised router
    9. Os bugs, Processor bugs, wallet software bugs
    10. DNS hijacking, phishing

    Gold, cash have their own problems. But most important issue is Knowledge. With Gold, people know what to expect. Stealing, losing objects is something everyone naturally understands. With Bitcoin there are new ways in which things can go bad. Maybe most people will never understand the possibilities here? Note: issues are for long term storage. Families change, locations change, Devices change, maybe attack areas change.

    Not to diss on BTC. Just think there could be more awareness here. To keep BTC safe/r. Development of tools, methods, PC's ?

    submitted by /u/batbitcoin
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    Why elites and statists are at war against Bitcoin

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 09:00 AM PDT

    We are at war

    I know this is going to be a long war: States vs individuals. Statists will fight fiercely to control of the income, activity and ,left unchecked, basically all aspects of the life of individuals. The result of this war is still uncertain but history is on our side.

    There are many aspects of this war, but here we focus on the economic part. Nation states took the responsibility of regulating the economic cycle to avoid recessions and in the name of that sacred mission they created narratives that allow them to do almost anything, it worked pretty well for a number of years, but now populist leaders are popping up everywhere and out of control of the elites, it is very hard to curb spending for a populist government so for them it's either debasing/debt or increase taxes.

    Debasing

    It all started with voluntary debt and as the states have money printing machines this seemed a sure bet for people measuring their wealth in fiat. Of course the balance sheet looks different if measured against something like land (fixed) or global GDP (expanding but way less than monetary base).

    Debasing/debt is just a way to extract money from the suckers that think they will retire with fiat-related savings and pension funds. Suckers think on their wealth in dollars and think inflation will be under control for the rest of their life. Elites accumulate in assets and consider fiat just a means not an end, Of course they also play the casino game very well so they are OK with Bonds, QE or even MMT. They will sell the part of their wealth still in fiat way before the suckers and their pension funds when/if things start to collapse.

    Stocks are a different beast because some of them will survive inflation episodes. Picking the right ones and choosing a good timing to buy seems hard though.

    What we are seeing now is that statists are out of control debasing the currencies, the money flows and quickly settles in static low rent pockets and that is why we are not seeing inflation: it is not triggering economic activity anymore as most of it is saved for the future. The existence of negative interest rates bonds is very telling: There is no escape to the fiat system. Real estate is too risky for the reasons I will explain on the tax section.

    Crypto, in particular Bitcoin, appears as an option for this lack of freedom. If crypto wins the war the states will not be able to debase their fiat currency anymore as every penny printed will create inflation.

    Income Tax and crypto

    Elites hate taxes on wealth and prefer taxes on income/spending as they are already rich. They lobbied for centuries to design the tax system for their convenience. They still need nation states but they don't want to pay for them. In addition taxing income/spending is way harder than taxing property/assets so the tax code ended up being extremely complex: they have the best lawyers / accountants to find loopholes and pay even less than their share on that.

    The statists think they can get away with just taxing income and they are closing all the gaps by creating global entities to control money laundering and tax havens and ultimately they will try to eliminate cash.

    Crypto poses a risk to this goal as society will be able to hide complete layers of economic activity from the eyes of the tax collectors. If crypto succeeds and becomes commonplace all the personal services (contractors, gardeners, plumbers, maids, accountants, lawyers) will prefer to be paid in crypto. Corporations will be better off outsourcing work to smaller companies that would be more able to dodge the taxman more efficiently, the trend will continue upwards taking over more and more layers.

    Taxing wealth will also be a challenge also as the states will not be able to size the crypto-wealth of individuals or corporations. At least they will be able to size real estate and other assets, and that leads us to:

    The endgame: Georgism and a better planet

    If crypto wins this war, statists will find it hard to fund the nation states services using debasing or taxing income so they will resort to something different, and if you think a little bit, very fair : Tax natural resources.

    Natural resources such as land, water, air, minerals, energy, radio frequency permits, shoreline usage, sea/river ports, roads, pollution permits, killing animals permits and I'm sure statists will find others. All these taxes are almost trivial to collect compared to the declarative income tax.

    I know they are taxing them now, but now think on really high taxes to support the dwindling income tax.

    Of course, corporations will pass these taxes to the consumer so if you drink Coke you will pay for the taxes on land usage of the Coca Cola plant, the water usage, the waste management, and so on. In the end the price structure of all goods and services will reflect the usage of natural resources.

    There will be entire categories of things that will become more expensive due to their usage of natural resources that now are "subsidized" (cough, cough oil...) . On the other hand all personal services will become cheaper from the consumer point since the service-performers will not pay income tax.

    People will not be able to accumulate real state as investment, this will create selling pressure and cheaper land, all land will be used for something.

    It will be almost impossible to evade taxes under this schema although the elites will lobby to influence in the tax rates for the different categories. Everybody and their mothers will access tax havens (i.e. crypto wallets)

    This scenario gives me hope for the planet

    submitted by /u/descartablet
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    Monday Art - Can you see the 20/20? - Acrylic on canvas 50x50cm

    Posted: 07 Oct 2019 12:34 AM PDT

    4 Recent Government Actions Which Are Bullish for Bitcoin

    Posted: 07 Oct 2019 02:13 AM PDT

    Is Robinhood a safe way to invest in BTC or am I just fooling myself?

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 04:04 PM PDT

    Venezuela’s largest retail chain opens its first Bitcoin ATM

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 11:35 AM PDT

    There are two reasons a person might use the word "blockchain"

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 08:24 PM PDT

    1. You are having a technical discussion about how bitcoin works.

    2. You are involved in a scam in some capacity. Maybe you are a victim, or maybe you are a perpetrator.

    submitted by /u/violencequalsbad
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    JUST TAKE MY MONEY! A hilarious story on the difficulty of purchasing bitcoin in Australia

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 10:55 PM PDT

    Max Hillebrand: "Assuming that we get Taproot and Sighash no input activated in the protocol, I claim that we have ‘perfect’ privacy in Bitcoin, and I seek to defend that claim."

    Posted: 06 Oct 2019 11:06 AM PDT

    source

    I'll bite. Taproot and sighash_no_input offer several privacy improvements, but they do not provide perfect privacy because -- even once we have those technologies -- the simplest and easiest way to use bitcoin will still leak your privacy, because it will still involve sending coins from your address to someone else's address, revealing a lower bound on how much money you own and a trail of breadcrumbs backward through the blockchain. Using bitcoin privately will still require using lightning and coinjoins, meaning there are extra steps and added risks. Moreover, even if you use all of these technologies -- taproot, lightning channels with sighash_no_input, and coinjoins -- chain surveillance companies will still be able to get information about a user's inputs, including amounts owned, when a user opens a channel, closes a channel, and/or when a user's coins exit a coinjoin. At that point, all it takes is sending your coins to one service that knows your identity (or knows someone who knows someone who knows your identity), and your privacy is compromised again.

    TLDR: these technologies help, especially if you use them to gain your privacy and then avoid making any privacy mistakes/tradeoffs in the future, but they don't provide perfect privacy yet.

    submitted by /u/nowitsalllgone
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