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    BTC Miner’s Plan to Fund Devs - Mega Thread

    January 25, 2020

    BTC Miner’s Plan to Fund Devs - Mega Thread

    Miner’s Plan to Fund Devs - Mega Thread

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 12:19 PM PST

    This is a sticky thread to discuss everything related to the proposed miner plan to fund developers (see also AMA). Please try to use this sticky thread for the time being since we are getting so many posts about this issue every few mins which is fracturing the discussions making it a difficult topic to follow. Will keep this up for a couple days to see how it goes. Thanks.

    submitted by /u/BitcoinXio
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    An open, neutral, borderless cash protocol should not have a privileged account that gives a central entity the ability to extract money from the protocol. [Read]

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 04:43 PM PST

    Once's the large miners are in control of this privileged account which has the ability to extract money from the protocol, mark my word, it will never go away.

    "But the developers do good work and deserve to be paid"

    If the devs want to be paid, they should set up a donation system. It's works for Monero. The devs submit a proposal, people donate, the devs are paid for 3-6 months of work then do it all again.

    If they don't want to rely on donations and want to be paid via the block reward, then their should be a properly decentralized DAO, much like Dash. In which the dev team can submit a proposal for funding, people vote on the proposal and if it passes, then the devs get the money they've requested. If people vote against it, no money is paid.

    There are many ways to fund a dev team, but creating a special, privileged account that allows for the individual with the key to skim money from the block reward, regardless of whether or not they contribute anything of value is *not* the way to do it.

    "But the miners can dissolve the special account"

    Have you ever considered that once this funded, privileged account exists, it will be far too valuable to ever remove? What's to stop miners and/or devs from spiting the profits from this privileged account? It's a win-win for them.

    What happens if the large miners say "Give me a cut of the 12% or we will remove it entirely"?

    What happens when large miners profit from mining rewards + a cut of the 12%? Small miners who don't receive a cut of these extra funds can't compete and leave. Then the only miners left are those in control of the privileged account and they gain full control of the chain.

    This is one possible outcome. There is a large number of possible outcomes, and almost all of them are bad. While at the same time there is 1 possible positive outcome - it works as expected. I doubt it.

    ​

    "but they are in it for the good of Bitcoin Cash, they wouldn't take advantage of the system"

    Are you asking me to trust them?

    This proposal is absolutely ludicrous and I'd go so far as to question the motives or intelligence of anybody who supports such a proposal. The odds of this being good for the chain are slim.

    submitted by /u/UnknownEssence
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    In the mean while, we've done >1700 #CashFusion transactions bringing back #privacy to over 6500 BCH. Pretty impressive if you ask me! ������

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 11:58 PM PST

    Look at all these FRESH accounts being used in /r/btc

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 05:39 PM PST

    Look at all these FRESH accounts being used in /r/btc

    Either:

    1. We have an influx of new money and users coming into this space(possibly a small amount, but I doubt much of it is new)
    2. We have new accounts/users being setup to sway information and push an agenda.

    This is just a reminder that often users from other subs will come here and try and push an agenda in a direction so as to begin infighting and distract from the real issue of P2P Digital Cash. Read what they have to say, but also realize what is going on and then you can weigh up how much is real and faked for yourself.

    submitted by /u/kilrcola
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    Please, stop calling anyone who doesn’t agree with the fund proposal a troll or another attack on Bitcoin Cash (BCH)

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 05:34 PM PST

    Stop, people who does not agree with the BCH fund plan likes Bitcoin Cash as much as anyone else here.

    Some major voices are against it and they were giving more than some in this space. It'll be good if instead of replying the same stuff everytime you start considering other people opinions. As far as I understand that's why r/btc was created.

    submitted by /u/oscar_salas93
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    "What happens if the powerful miners decide to increase the 21 million limit?"

    Posted: 25 Jan 2020 12:10 AM PST

    This used to be a common question in the old days of r/bitcoin, when people who understood the dangers of centralized inflation tried to understand Bitcoin.

    The answer was always: "well, the miners could do that but Bitcoin would lose all value to a competing currency which was not inflationary, since nobody wants inflation in their own wallet".

    Regarding this horrendous idea of a centralized entity with no accountability pocketing 12% of the mining reward, I see lots of comments arguing it doesn't matter what we think, the miners have decided what is good for us. "It doesnt matter what you think, you are not a miner","Get hash power or stfu" etc.

    This is so wrong.

    It is us the users and the great community of BCH which give it value, not the miners. We have the ultimate power. And the great power of BCH community is the moral high ground based on freedom and the belief in a better world, free from centralized money creation fueling corruption and power abuse.

    What's to stop this cartel from changing the 21M limit, the mining reward etc when they have grabbed enough power of the community? Sure, these might be trusted people now but what about in ten years when the 12% are worth the average of a average country BNP?

    Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    No I am not a miner and will probably never be. But I can vote with my feet and sell my BCH. As a matter of fact, many other cryptos already has a much more transparent and decentralized way of funding development. Why should I go for a lousy version of Dash? What happened to those of you who always bash Dash, where are you now?

    If developers need money, ask for donations. It works for Monero and it works here. You can develop BCH all the way to perfection but I won't care if it's on the road to becoming The Fed 2.0. Bitcoin must follow the Whitepaper or I'm out.

    EDIT: I'm not opposed to the idea of using block reward to fund development. I just believe we have to be very careful as to the execution. It needs to be transparent and absolutely aligned with the incentives of decentralized peer to peer cash.

    submitted by /u/SwedishSalsa
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    I can't wait to be able to switch all my business transactions over to BCH.

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 07:37 PM PST

    Bitcoin.com's Clarifications on the Miner Development Fund

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 12:18 PM PST

    I have written an article explaining an alternative proposal on how to implement a self-funding mechanism over Bitcoin Cash with a decentralized voting process, achieved with a single change from the initial Infrastructure Funding Plan, using existing & proven technology:

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 06:56 PM PST

    Bitcoin Cash now has Fastsync enabled in BRD wallet!

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 02:14 PM PST

    The BCH community in Thailand is amazing!

    Posted: 25 Jan 2020 02:35 AM PST

    Here is the absolute right way to fund developers

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 02:54 PM PST

    All this miners orphaning blocks stuff, we don't need to resort to such a system.

    The answer to fund development is not that hard. The major wallets simply need to add a field to their payments page that allows people to tip them either a percentage of the amount sent or donate a flat figure as part of the send.

    Setup your wallets so they have an adjustable default of this kind. You can even make a wallet that has a hardcoded donation percentage that goes to you.

    Then let competition do the rest.

    We do not need miner schemes that rely on orphaning, because they damages trust in the system and places that money in the hands of people who now have an incentive to rent-seek on their control of those funds, creating a 'Blockstream part 2' scenario, since it would be in their interest to continually raise that amount over time, and continue throwing their weight around to make it happen.

    Instead, give people the option to donate to you in your wallets and complete for quality wallet performance.

    Don't think this would work? Consider the case of Winamp, a popular MP3 playing program in the 90's, the dude who created it had his parents convince him to put a donation address in there and he earned millions through people literally mailing him money. And that's without all the advantages of the internet and crypto we have today.

    Let the donation go directly from consumer to the devs in this fashion, otherwise you create incentives to rent-seek that can create a Blockstream 2.0 scenario.

    submitted by /u/Anen-o-me
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    Spotted in Slovenia

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 08:57 AM PST

    Time for some to move on...

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 11:51 PM PST

    I support the funding proposal... Of course I have my personal doubts, see potential red flags, and still need to fully comprehend how this can all play out...

    But I believe it's time for BCH to start fulfilling its potential. And the strong commitment indicated by 4 of the biggest names in BCH, will bring great benefit to Bitcoin Cash imo...

    It can go wrong of course but I believe the potential upside is factors greater than the worst case doomsday thinking I see everywhere now...

    It's funny how suddenly the ''Evil Chinese Miners'' talking point is back...Which brings me to my following point:

    I am for this proposal, many of you are against it...
    It makes it hard for me to read correctly into all of your worries, as effectively you are standing shoulder to shoulder, screaming with Corebois, SVtards and other BCH haters, who are just here to create as much sabotage, distrust, chaos as possible...

    The commitment signaling from Bitcoin.com and the Chinese is obvious; they will go ahead and commit 110% to making the fund happen...

    So at this point if you are truly not able to digest what is coming; it might be time for you to drop your support for BCH..

    It's ok... I understand the fanatic positions to rather see BCH dwindle into oblivion (and feel proud still), then to make a single trade off that is needed to guarantee long term survival and thriving of the chain... It's an emotional battle we are all having to an extend...

    But the simple truth is that everyone here had 2.5 years of undisturbed momentum to build up BCH in its most perfect and puritan form, engage in community building, write up proposals etc etc etc... And to be clear, many community members have done amazing things since aug 2017...

    But sadly the fact is, the tragedy of the commons did hit BCH, and certain problems are just not going to solve themselves... and without action and a solution, this project can easily end in an irreversible and definitive failure...

    If I have the choice between being a moral knight and turning my back on BCH, or accept the trade off... I will stand with the proven track record of Roger's, Jihan's and Haipo's integrity and love for BCH.

    The Bitcoin Cash train is moving on, onto world domination, globally mass adopted as P2P cash... And Im not gonna leave myself behind...

    So make up your mind..

    P.S. We can all complain about everything not being picture perfect, but in the end the hashing machines decide... And they have announced their decision...

    If I had to post one suggestion; I would like to see a Pledge from the 4 gents, to not proceed directly after these 6months, with a second 6 month term... Lets keep this TRIAL AND ERROR, as a first attempt

    Let's use the nov20-may21 season to evaluate the 6 month period; examine and analyze usage of the funds... address the % in case BCH price goes up substantially... and eventually agree if we should do this again may21-nov21, do it in an amended version, or stop doing it all together..

    Thanks for all of your participation, and hopefully we will come through unified and stronger

    submitted by /u/J_A_Bankster
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    I just want to thank the Bitcoin Cash /r/BTC community for supporting free speech and engaging in vigorous debate without anyone calling for censorship.

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 03:34 AM PST

    And shame on the /r/Bitcoin moderators for turning their backs on these important principles and continuing to enact a massive censorship campaign to this very day.

    submitted by /u/MemoryDealers
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    How to Obscure Bitcoin Cash Transaction Data by Leveraging Cashfusion

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 02:01 PM PST

    Alternative to the 12,5% mining tax: Monero CCS

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 08:41 AM PST

    I just want to raise awareness there are other ways to fund developers directly: https://ccs.getmonero.org/

    Benefit is anyone can basically make a proposal, get funded by community members, and paid out after reaching milestones.

    You should definitely take a look at it.

    I can't remember when a crucial dev or proposal did not get funded.

    submitted by /u/Flenst
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    Why the silence from the people who signed their names to Jiang's proposal?

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 04:56 AM PST

    As I wrote in my post on read.cash yesterday, I don't think the idea put forth by Jiang Zhuo'er is necessarily a bad idea, but I'm not convinced that it's a good idea either or that the tradeoffs are worth it.

    The silence from the KOLs who signed their name to this document is not helping things. The haphazard way in which things were announced was bad enough, but if the people who are throwing their weight behind this idea aren't going to show up and offer reassurances or any comment at all on the plan, it's a really bad look.

    submitted by /u/BeijingBitcoins
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    Roger Ver Praises Vigorous Debate, Fyookball Clarifies Support as BCH Dev Fund Proposal Reaction Heats Up

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 02:03 PM PST

    [GitHub] Double Spend Proofs

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 08:42 PM PST

    Please explain how any of the fund money is coming from miners

    Posted: 25 Jan 2020 12:08 AM PST

    Please tell me how are "BTC miners paying" or any miner at all. The money are from the block reward, thus from inflating the coin. This inflation used to pay for security, now it will pay for a little less security and a bit more development. That's it.

    As explained, less security means miners will mine less, so no, they are not paying us any money. They just mine what's most profitable, as always.

    "But this will make 0.3% of the hash power unneeded, thus mining at a loss paying for the fund". No. All crypto prices collapsed 5% last weak, did miners care? 0.3% is nothing.

    All of the fund money are coming solely from inflation and some will now go towards devs, instead of security.

    submitted by /u/lubokkanev
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    Wealth doesn't last. You need productivity. Ray Dalio says.

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 05:17 PM PST

    Blockchain wallet ID reminder not working??

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 11:25 PM PST

    Reddit Anti-Evil Operations Censoring BTC-Epstein/Joi Post via Shadowban

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 02:09 PM PST

    Thoughts on the dev fund proposal

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 02:07 PM PST

    I'm all for trying to get money to devs. Many chaintips have gone to Amaury and others for their amazing contributions, and every time they do, I'm happy about it.

    However, the proposed dev fund initially strikes me as a bad idea considering that a fund with centralised control is created reducing the decentralised nature of BCH.

    If I'm not mistaken, if slightly more than 51% of the miners want this, it may get through but with a large danger to split the community... again.

    If more (say closer to 75%) of the miners support this then just ante up the cash and leave the protocol alone. Who cares if 25% leech? The devs are still going to get 75% of what they would have if the change got forced through. An additional plus (on top of not having to change the protocol), the 75% actually get to individually assign where they think their capital should go and not some group outside their control.

    Am I missing something? Is it difficult to coordinate this without introducing a protocol change?

    We can sticky a thread here where devs who would like funding for their work/ future work, describe, and the miners who want to support them can tip them them publicly. People can see how much has been contributed to each. I'm not saying that this will work for sure, but it should at least be tried before this more drastic proposal.

    Forcing the giving to be public will, IMO, make it more likely that all who agree to this donation effort actually give and don't back out. If someone is seen not to be giving publicly then they will be known not to be giving even though they have agreed to it. Chaintip could be used to record the giving publicly.

    submitted by /u/Tibanne
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    Yes, miners decide... Olivier Janssens, 2018-08

    Posted: 24 Jan 2020 09:37 AM PST
    Read more
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