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    Bitcoin Daily Discussion, July 01, 2019

    July 01, 2019

    Bitcoin Daily Discussion, July 01, 2019

    Daily Discussion, July 01, 2019

    Posted: 01 Jul 2019 12:00 AM PDT

    Please utilize this sticky thread for all general Bitcoin discussions! If you see posts on the front page or /r/Bitcoin/new which are better suited for this daily discussion thread, please help out by directing the OP to this thread instead. Thank you!

    If you don't get an answer to your question, you can try phrasing it differently or commenting again tomorrow.

    We have a couple chat rooms now!

    Please check the previous discussion thread for unanswered questions.

    submitted by /u/rBitcoinMod
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    Technical: Upcoming Lightning Network Improvement: JIT-Routing

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 08:33 PM PDT

    Bitcoin up? Down? Sideways? Who cares? Lightning Network is going LIVE and that's all that MATTERS!

    Last time I talked about a bunch of upcoming Lightning Network improvements. They weren't complete, because there are a big bunch of them being worked on (or mostly just being debated, most devs are fighting bugs and adding boring little features like adding options for various timeouts in communicating with bitcoind and getting their impls out of beta / alpha and etc etc).

    One thing I'd forgotten about was JIT Routing, which /u/renepickhardt reminded me about. JIT Routing is actually a potentially-viable alternative to multipart payments / AMP, and in particular does not require a BOLT spec update, though does require that most nodes on the network implement it (unlike multipart, which requires only that the payer and payee support it).

    /u/renepickhardt introduced the idea here: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2019-March/001891.html

    I feel this idea is underappreciated --- AMP gets all the press --- so it deserves its own unique Reddit post!

    JIT-Routing

    Rerouting payments by rebalancing just in time to service forwarding requests!

    Background

    Now one thing about multipart payments --- or even just current, non-multipart payments --- is that the payer is mostly just guessing what channels are viable to route through.

    In the current scheme where payments cannot be split up, payers just do some payment through a route, then if that fails, tries another route, etc etc until it gets paid.

    For multipart payments, it's not clear what algorithm to implement, actually. If some route fails, maybe it could work with a lower payment going through it, or maybe not; who knows?

    The remote node that is sending the failure knows, but it can't tell the payer: for all it knows, the "payer" is really a spy node that's trying to trace how much each node owns (for example, as viable targets for the more sophisticated $5 wrench attacks). So all the remote node can safely say is "channel hazy, try again later" (temporary_channel_failure in BOLT terms) which could mean anything from not having capacity to the other endpoint being disconnected to the channel being overloaded with in-flight HTLCs to the node just being lazy today. It can't say "oh you can only route up to XX millisatoshi in that direction right now" because that immediately leaks how much money it and its counterparty owns in that channel, i.e. a minimum on how much a $5 wrench can extract from both nodes.

    So since routing is source-based (so that the payer has maximum privacy and able to get around attempts at censorship), the source has to figure out how to get its payment to the destination. But the same principle of privacy-by-default means that the source can't get information about the capacities of the channels it's trying to route through, because the intermediate nodes sure as hell ain't gonna tell.

    Now the insight in JIT Routing is that the forwarding node has the knowledge of the current channel liquidities of all channels it has. And rather than leaving the details of every routing attempt to the source payer, the forwarding node can instead make local routing decisions based on its knowledge of local channel state.

    Idea

    • When a node receives a forwarding request it can't currently serve because of lack of liquidity in the next channel, the node rebalances its funds (by doing a circular self-payment) from other channels it has, to the next channel specified in the route.

    Yep. That's all of it. That, in a nutshell, is JIT-routing. It's probably more accurate to call it JIT-rebalancing.

    Effect

    • Suppose we have nodes A, B, and C, with channels to each other with roughly equal liquidity on each side.
    • Suppose A has to forward a payment to B, of value 5 mBTC, but it only has 3 mBTC on A<->B, while it has also 3mBTC on A<->C.
    • A knows there's a channel B<->C. It rebalances via the route A->2mBTC->C->B->A. moving 2mBTC from the channel A<->C to the channel A<->B.
    • Once the rebalance completes, A can now perform the 5mBTC forward.
    • This is equivalent to the multipart case where the payer somehow routes 3mBTC via A->B and 2mBTC via A->C->B to deliver 5mBTC to B (which could be the ultimate payee, or another forwarding node). The difference is that the remote payer has to guess, while in JIT routing, A knows exactly what needs to be done to deliver 5mBTC to B.

    Advantages

    • Doesn't even need a BOLT spec change: can be done by just adding the feature to implementations without touching the BOLT spec. Rebalancing can already be done now (for a fee), and nodes already have to keep track of how much they own in each channel they have, so there's no extra spec that has to be created to coordinate how payers and payees work. Each implementation can implement this independently without having to write specs in BOLT (this is a bigger hurdle than it might seem!).
    • No guesswork: the forwarding node knows all the information it needs to do JIT routing. Contrast this with AMP, where the payer somehow magically guesses that it should split its payment across multiple routes. JIT routing is very much like a "local multipart forward" with near-perfect information.

    Disadvantages

    • Rebalancing isn't free! If the forwarding node has to pay a fee for the rebalancing, then it runs the risk that, even if it manages forwards the payment, a later node on the route fails the payment and this node doesn't earn fees, even though it ended up paying fees for the rebalancing. This can be mitigated by measuring the failure rate for forwarding attempts, and only rebalancing if the rebalancing fee won't exceed the forwarding fee times the probability of success, but that somewhat limits the use of JIT-routing.
      • Rene is working on a proposal for fee-free rebalancing. Fee-free rebalancing might be subject to abuse, since it might be used for paying nearby without fees.
    • Only really becomes beneficial if almost all nodes on the network implement it. Compare this to multipart payments, where even if there are only two nodes that implement it (the payer and the payee) then they get benefits immediately, whereas for JIT-routing, a forwarding node that does JIT routing is likely to experience higher failure rates later in the route from nodes that themselves don't do JIT-routing, effectively causing the forwarding node to waste money on the rebalancing (see above, Rebalancing isn't free!).
    submitted by /u/almkglor
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    Just set up my first Full Node on an unused laptop! 24/7 uptime and full copy of the blockchain. Here's to supporting the network!

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 09:27 PM PDT

    Lil Nas X - Old Town Road (Bitcoin Version)

    Posted: 01 Jul 2019 12:26 AM PDT

    Bitcoin Hits all time high!

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 06:54 PM PDT

    For Those Feeling Nervous Right now

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 05:50 AM PDT

    2 People Cited In The Bitcoin White Paper Share Their Thoughts On Crypto's Future

    Posted: 01 Jul 2019 01:49 AM PDT

    Every time someone says Bitcoin is dead ��

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 12:21 PM PDT

    Bitcoin a Better Bet Than Bolivars as Venezuelan Hyperinflation Escalates

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 11:49 PM PDT

    Guys I’m rich!

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 05:15 PM PDT

    Inventors of Blockchain and PoW meet for the first time

    Posted: 01 Jul 2019 02:00 AM PDT

    Pompliano Reveals Massive Personal Bitcoin Investment; Predicts $100,000 by December 2021

    Posted: 01 Jul 2019 03:12 AM PDT

    BTC market is still healthy!

    Posted: 01 Jul 2019 12:44 AM PDT

    This little run was largely fueled by transactions stuck in mempool, exchanges need to step up their Segwit & Lightning game

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 11:03 PM PDT

    This little run was largely fueled by transactions stuck in mempool, exchanges need to step up their Segwit & Lightning game

    ​

    https://i.redd.it/ed3ii3m9rm731.png

    Seems like people who wanted to cash out at 11k on the way up got delayed because they couldn't get their money on the exchange, which caused the "sell" order book to be weaker and therefore price went up even more (as fiat deposits were not influenced). As the mempool cleared, price went down to 11k again. In a way, this volatility is unhealthy and a sign of immaturity. It would work better if more exchanges (especially the big ones) implemented Lightning deposits and withdrawals. As it stands currently, many don't even have segwit yet, or not native segwit. We should do something to change that.

    If you agree Sewgit and Lightning deposits & withdrawals should be a thing, you can write a support ticket to your exchange, asking them if and when do they plan to implement it. There is always some manager somewhere that reads compiled stats from support tickets to see what most people are asking about. If they see an uptick in Lightning questions, they will likely do something about it. (And if they don't, public shaming campaign may follow)

    submitted by /u/zzanzare
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    P2pool is hard forking soon to version 34. Upgrade required. Brings P2SH and Segwit payouts (BTC/LTC), plus huge performance and fairness improvements.

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 10:21 PM PDT

    Fidelity and Baakt?

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 07:28 PM PDT

    Just curious these guys went silent again huh?

    Whens the launch for Fidelity or are they pulling our leg again like Baakt?

    submitted by /u/dinono33
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    People say bitcoin mining wastes too much electricity. But I think, if we all use the bitcoins and shut down all the banks, it will save much more electricity, isn't it? The banker don't need to go to work any more and they also don't need to print money. Isn't it a much better solution?

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 02:27 PM PDT

    Why people will use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, when it's a perfect store of value? TIA.

    Posted: 01 Jul 2019 01:02 AM PDT

    Mentor Monday, July 01, 2019: Ask all your bitcoin questions!

    Posted: 01 Jul 2019 04:01 AM PDT

    Ask (and answer!) away! Here are the general rules:

    • If you'd like to learn something, ask.
    • If you'd like to share knowledge, answer.
    • Any question about Bitcoin is fair game.

    And don't forget to check out /r/BitcoinBeginners

    You can sort by new to see the latest questions that may not be answered yet.

    submitted by /u/rBitcoinMod
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    ANTONOPOULOS - THE FUTURE OF MONEY: How Bitcoin &amp; Blockchain Become The World’s Currency - Part 1/2

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 09:24 AM PDT

    Venezuela UPDATE. 1 BTC is around 88,000,000 Bs. Last two week it was 77,000,000 Bs. (Bolivares). Monthly minimum wage is less than 9 USD. 666 BTC were traded last week using LBTC (down from 819 BTC last week) which is around 46,106,978,636 Bs.

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 07:53 AM PDT

    I'm a Venezuelan "living" here. AMA.

    Government issued new Bolivares banknotes. 10,000 Bs. / 20,000 Bs. and 50,000. Bs.. 50,000 Bs. are around 8 USD, since the time they announce them and people get them at the banks they have lost 10% of the value.

    This after 5 zeroes were shaved from the currency less than a year ago and 3 zeroes more 12 years ago. So it would be 5,000,000,000,000 Bs.

    Sources:

    https://coin.dance/volume/localbitcoins/VES/BTC

    https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-venezuela-cafe-con-leche-index/

    https://dolarsatoshi.com/

    About the minimum wage

    https://www.venezuelanews.net/news/260700087/the-president-of-venezuela-raises-the-minimum-wage

    40.000 Bs. per month plus 25.000 Bs. as food bonus, total 65.000 Bs. Around 9 USD at street rate and 10 USD at official rate.

    About US sanctions:

    https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/impact-of-the-2017-sanctions-on-venezuela_final.pdf

    AMA!

    submitted by /u/WorkingLime
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    New weekly Trading Volume high in Bitcoin on Binance

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 04:25 PM PDT

    Beethoven - Secret Trezor Safe (remix)

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 07:23 PM PDT

    PSA: Do not trade on reddit or anywhere without escrow. u/jfjenson and u/Xylemup are scammers.

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 07:47 AM PDT

    They might even be the same person. This is his other acc where he "trades": https://bitify.com/user/gcking/

    Just don't trade without escrow. Use a proper exchange or do it person to person. Don't get burned like me.

    submitted by /u/Kalin101
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    In another boost for Bitcoin, surprise collapse of regional Chinese bank sets off domino effect!

    Posted: 30 Jun 2019 01:30 PM PDT

    What makes bitcoin in specific so special?

    Posted: 01 Jul 2019 03:40 AM PDT

    I understand Bitcoin is King and is what currently dictates most coins value but I hear people say btc in itself is dated and I do see some places starting to incorporate bitcoin but it's very minimal if non existent. To a bitcoin holder what is your thought process making you believe so much in bitcoin? I also believe digital currencies are the future but people are so scared by the fact it's not really insured and if digital currencies are the future wouldn't governments make their own insured coin? I really like bitcoin but I feel like their are many gaps I can't wrap my head over. Thank you for reading and please call me out on ignorance portrayed.

    submitted by /u/pooplickerdelicious
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