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    Bitcoin Daily Discussion, June 21, 2019

    June 21, 2019

    Bitcoin Daily Discussion, June 21, 2019

    Daily Discussion, June 21, 2019

    Posted: 21 Jun 2019 12:00 AM PDT

    Please utilize this sticky thread for all general Bitcoin discussions! If you see posts on the front page or /r/Bitcoin/new which are better suited for this daily discussion thread, please help out by directing the OP to this thread instead. Thank you!

    If you don't get an answer to your question, you can try phrasing it differently or commenting again tomorrow.

    We have a couple chat rooms now!

    Please check the previous discussion thread for unanswered questions.

    submitted by /u/rBitcoinMod
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    The value of gold went up nearly 3.5% today. Gold has a market cap of $8 trillion. That means that gold's value increased by approximately $280 billion today, or roughly the value of the entire cryptocurrency market.

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 12:22 PM PDT

    Bitcoin is still in its infancy and has plenty of room to grow.

    submitted by /u/AlwaysGettingLearned
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    10k incoming? It’s at 9600 right now

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 06:07 PM PDT

    I need to provide something useful here because otherwise the mods will delete my post.

    submitted by /u/chovy
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    am I doing this right?

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 07:03 PM PDT

    I found this gem here during the bull market, but I need new gifs. Please share them for the greater good.

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 07:22 PM PDT

    This week's Donald Duck (NL) is about Bitcoin! And yes, it's real!

    Posted: 21 Jun 2019 02:40 AM PDT

    Law suit incoming

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 04:28 AM PDT

    Upcoming Updates to Bitcoin Consensus

    Posted: 21 Jun 2019 12:40 AM PDT

    Price and Libra posts are shit boring, so let's focus on a technical topic for a change.

    Let me start by presenting a few of the upcoming Bitcoin consensus changes.

    (as these are consensus changes and not P2P changes it does not include erlay or dandelion)

    Let's hope the community strongly supports these upcoming updates!

    Schnorr

    The sexy new signing algo.

    Advantages

    • We have a simpler proof of the security of Schnorr than the current ECDSA: a general heuristic is that a simpler proof is better since simpler proofs have less complexity for vulnerabilities to hide in. In practice most cryptographers would consider these roughly equivalent in security.
    • Linear signatures. This lets you do some operations on signatures which include making it possible for a n-of-n signing group to construct a single pubkey and signature, as well as providing secret communications channels (i.e. you provide the difference between two scalars privately, then create a signature using one scalar and publish it, which reveals the other scalar, letting you communicate this scalar while providing a signature that validates a transaction).
    • As a completely new signing scheme we can optimize signatures and public keys a little more than the existing ECDSA Bitcoin signatures, to help reduce resource usage. For instance an SECP256K1 point requires 257 bits to store, which is typically stored as one byte for the "extra" 1 bit and 32 bytes as the remaining 256 bits, but this extra bit is really the "sign" of the point (positive or negative) and we can enforce certain restrictions like "always use positive points", and a scalar which produces a negative point can be "negated" to produce a positive point, letting us cut out one entire byte from precious onchain space.

    Disadvantages

    • The Schnorr patent strongly discouraged development of Schnorr signatures. For this reason there are still details that hadn't been hammered out. The bip-schnorr proposal by Pieter hammers down some details, but there are still some concerns about multisignature and more complex usages below that are still being investigated.

    MuSig

    A provably-secure way for a group of n participants to form an aggregate pubkey and signature. Creating their group pubkey does not require their coordination other than getting individual pubkeys from each participant, but creating their signature does require all participants to be online near-simultaneously.

    Advantages

    • Provably-secure. We already knew from Schnorr's work that Schnorr signatures allow multiparticipant signing, but his original proposal was actually insecure (this is part of the disadvantage caused by Schnorr patenting the signature scheme, nobody bothered to correct his multiparticipant signing procedure because why give free work for him?).
    • We can create a group pubkey without telling the group we made such; we only need to get their individual pubkeys. This can be useful in some protocols, e.g. escrow protocols where we elect a group of n-of-n participants as a possible escrow signer; we create this group pubkey from the published pubkeys of the escrow services, but only reveal to them that this group pubkey involves them later in case of dispute (signing requires everyone's cooperation); if the trade has no dispute at all then the escrow group never needs to learn that the group pubkey included them or that the trade was potentially an escrow trade.
    • Creates just a single signature and pubkey, greatly reducing the space needed onchain for n-of-n groups.
    • No actual change in consensus needed, other than supporting Schnorr signatures as a consensus signing scheme.

    Disadvantages

    • Only n-of-n; m-of-n requires verifiable secret sharing in addition to MuSig. In particular, for m-of-n we require that the participants also cooperate while generating the group pubkey (unlike the n-of-n case where we can just get published pubkeys, the m-of-n case requires that we perform some cooperative calculation to generate the private key shares for each participant).
    • Unlike separate-signatures-and-pubkeys multisig (i.e. what current OP_CHECKMULTISIG does), participants cannot simply send a signature it generates by itself and then go offline in no specific order. Instead, participants have to cooperatively generate a temporary signing nonce and then generate the signature. This is what forces all participants to be online at the time of generating the signature. This can be mitigated somewhat since you can pass around partial signatures, so once you have gotten the agreed-upon nonce and then created your partial signature, you can then go offline. This might not be a particularly big disadvantage but existing protocols might require an extra message turnaround in order to handle the multiple-rounds nature of MuSig.

    Taproot

    Hiding a Bitcoin SCRIPT inside a pubkey, letting you sign with the pubkey without revealing the SCRIPT, or reveal the SCRIPT without signing with the pubkey.

    Advantages

    • You can show a SCRIPT and ignore the pubkey, or sign with the pubkey and ignore (and never reveal) the SCRIPT. This can be simulated somewhat with current Bitcoin by using a separate transaction that pays from a pubkey (or m-of-n or n-of-n multisig) to a SCRIPT, which you only publish if you want to take the SCRIPT path, but Taproot optimizes this by letting you dispense with that separate transaction. Some protocols that want to have some privacy (CoinSwap in particular) will need to have some way to hide the SCRIPT path and just use a pubkey (or m-of-n or n-of-n) in the "best case", and Taproot allows the "worst case" SCRIPT path to be somewhat more optimized if we need to take that branch.
    • The exact proposed mechanism in bip-taproot by Pieter allows another version number to be embedded. So not only do we have current 16 available SegWit versions (v0 already in use, v1 is intended to be taken for Taproot, v2->15 are for future expansion) we also extend SegWit v1 to have 256 "script versions" too, only one of which will be used for MAST (see below). A new "script version" can completely drop the current stack-based SCRIPT language and replace it with a completely new language, for example.
    • As a new SegWit version we can change the rules of the SCRIPT language to clean up some infelicities of the existing SCRIPT. For example, instead of OP_NOP operations we have OP_SUCCESS operations in the Taproot SCRIPT. When a softfork changes an OP_NOP to a different opcode, it can only either fail the SCRIPT or do nothing to the stack. When a softfork changes an OP_SUCCESS to a different opcode, it can do anything, including put new items on the stack, rearrange the stack, and so on.

    Disadvantages

    • It uses the pay-to-contract construction, which is used to allow a UTXO to commit to a message (in Taproot's case, the SCRIPT) without spending more space other than the pubkey it pays to. However, other schemes might want to use pay-to-contract (because of the space savings of the ability to embed a message commitment without adding more space beyond the pubkey), so care must be taken to ensure that such schemes using pay-to-contract do not conflict with Taproot itself.
    • Having a "SCRIPT only" UTXO (i.e. one which cannot be spent using a simple signature, but requires some more complex SCRIPT) requires that we compute a "nothing up my sleeves" (NUMS) point, i.e. a pubkey which we generate in such a way that we, or anyone, cannot possibly learn the corresponding privkey. This is already doable but requires that we actually use NUMS if we want a UTXO that can only be spent via a particular SCRIPT.

    MAST

    Encode each possible branch of a Bitcoin contract separately, and only require revelation of the exact branch taken, without revealing any of the other branches. One of the Taproot script versions will be used to denote a MAST construction. If the contract has only one branch then MAST does not add more overhead.

    Advantages

    • Privacy; branches not taken are not revealed, potentially hiding the possible participation of some entity with known pubkey if that entity ends up not signing for that branch.
    • Can be used to emulate m-of-n while using only n-of-n MuSigs (remember, n-of-n MuSig can be set up by knowing only the pubkeys of all participants, but m-of-n requires that the participants split up an n-of-n MuSig key into m shares, and each participant has to remember its own share (which can be difficult for hardware wallets to safely do)). To emulate m-of-n, you just get every subgroup of m participants, create an m-of-m MuSig pubkey for each subgroup, then make multiple <MuSig(P1,...,Pm)> OP_CHECKSIG scripts, each of which you treat as a "separate branch" in the MAST (you probably want to use a NUMS point as the Taproot pubkey that hides the MAST scripts, or select which sub-group of m is the most likely to be online later and put that as the Taproot pubkey). You need to have m participants online at signing time. This has the side effect of not revealing participants who didn't sign.

    Disadvantages

    • Requires O(log n) data to be revealed for n branches. This mildly leaks some information: if you see q data to prove the MAST, then the number of branches is between 2q-1 and 2q . This can be twisted around to make unbalanced MAST trees, but unbalanced MAST trees imply that some branches are more likely than others (you'd put the more likely branches in the leaves that are nearer to the root, so fewer data revealed == more likely), which again can be a mild information leak. Might not be particularly bad information leak in practice, but for example Graftroot (which is not yet proposed) achieves O(1) data revelation for n branches, leaking no data at all on the number of other branches and/or the probability of the revealed branch.
    submitted by /u/almkglor
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    My personal story of Buying at the ath

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 09:40 PM PDT

    Before i start, all values are in cdn $.

    So I bought my first bit of Bitcoin 2 years ago during the big spike. Even though I had thought of many times to buy it before I didn't. But when it skyrocketed i knew i wanted to get in. I started buying a little bit when it was at $9,000. Due to the verification restrictions and single time our base restriction i could only buy a little bit at a time (i think it was $500 per week i could buy). This was really frustrating for me because the value was going up like crazy and I felt like I was missing out big time.

    During the time I couldn't buy, all I had left to do was follow this subreddit. And i learned some things that helped me a lot in the long run. Most importantly, don't out in more than you can afford to lose. I decided on $10,000. This was a significant amount for me still but at the same time, if i lost it all it wouldn't have affected my other plans to buy a house etc. Secondly i kept reading everywhere to hodl. So many people mentioned at the time (and they got downvoted too) that we should expect the price to go back down as its likely a bubble but they all said to hodl. Honestly this was huge because if it wasn't for this i would have lost all the money. Thirdly, to realize that you don't lose until you sell. Fourthly, dollar cost averaging.

    I ended up buying my $10,000 worth of Bitcoin at varying prices between $9000 and 25000. I think the average purchase price ended up being around $15000.

    And then it tanked. It went all the way down to $5000 and the only reason i didn't sell was because of the points mentioned earlier. Instead i started buying more smaller amounts regularly ($50 a week). Did that for two years and I'm now easily in the green.

    My point is just that i could have panicked and sold but this sub taught me a lot and it really helped. Bitcoin is now my "fun" side investment. I could have definitely done it better and been more profitable but that's the other thing i learned, if you always try to time the market, you will fail more often than not.

    And the biggest thing that Bitcoin has helped me with is to be steady with investments and not panic. I remember about a year ago when I read in the news that the "stock market is plummeting" and i went to check my mutual funds and stock profiles. They went down like 5% which i guess is a big drop in the stock market but i kinda just scoffed and went about my day. I was amazed at how it didn't even phase me at all.

    Just wanted to share my story and take a minute to thank the random people in this sub. I don't fully get Bitcoin yet, I haven't used it as a currency yet but I know I'm part of something new and exciting and it feels good.

    submitted by /u/draft_wagon
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    Just a quick reminder..

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 11:38 AM PDT

    I try. I really do.

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 01:59 PM PDT

    Bitcoin climbing through FUD be like..

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 12:10 PM PDT

    Pay your ⛽️ with Bitcoin!

    Posted: 21 Jun 2019 03:05 AM PDT

    Let the memes begin

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 04:59 PM PDT

    Don't miss this gem:

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 11:58 PM PDT

    All aboard the FOMO train!

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 07:47 PM PDT

    For what it's worth I'm a longtime Bitcoin advocate and bull

    However!.

    I think the next wave of adoption is close. POS systems are becoming increasingly more powerful to where they could easily become a node, which enables businesses to transact without borders and limits.

    I've bought from multiple retailers using Bitcoin recently, and not one merchant even knew it until I explained to them how.

    People I know that had no interest a year ago, and who have little knowledge about computers in general are now asking me more.

    Buckle up friends.

    submitted by /u/justsomenooby
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    Facebooks project Libra is everything that Bitcoin is against

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 03:48 PM PDT

    Don't take this this chart too seriously, but I had fun making it.

    Posted: 21 Jun 2019 12:02 AM PDT

    lnd v0.7.0-beta-rc2 tagged

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 08:24 PM PDT

    Advanced users who are comfortable with compiling from source are encouraged to test and give feedback!

    submitted by /u/cfromknecht
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    PSA don't look at fiat value as a bar to reach to convert your bitcoin to, look at it as simply a measure of purchase power

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 07:21 PM PDT

    I love watching the fiat value of my stash go up but not because I am trying to sell, but because the fiat value is used to measure the purchase power of my satoshis. When you realize this, you will realize there is no point in ever converting to government paper.

    submitted by /u/bluethunder1985
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    You can buy 10,500 satoshis for $1

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 02:58 PM PDT

    Sounds cheap when you frame it that way.

    submitted by /u/j2510
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    Anon is almost 2/2 now

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 08:19 AM PDT

    �� Bitcoin now 8th largest world currency ��

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 12:22 PM PDT

    Bitcoin Is Now An Unstoppable Force

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 11:44 PM PDT

    Law suit incoming 2.0

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 02:13 PM PDT

    Can I have an idiot's guide to buying bitcoin please :)

    Posted: 20 Jun 2019 10:16 PM PDT

    Sorry its such a dumb question. All the googling I do, just seems like I'm going to get scammed so thought I'd ask here for a simple definitive answer. I actually bought a little a couple of years ago but is now showing as 'unspendable' on my bitcoin app so I think I've lost it (only talking about a few £ so not massively concerned. Main thing is I want to do it right this time :) I'm UK based if that makes any difference. TBH I'm not interested in being mega rich, or changing the world, I'll just be getting about £100 that I don't mind losing so that I can have fun watching the charts.

    submitted by /u/stanagetocurbar
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