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    Cryptocurrency Daily General Discussion - February 6, 2018

    February 06, 2018

    Cryptocurrency Daily General Discussion - February 6, 2018

    Daily General Discussion - February 6, 2018

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 10:13 PM PST

    Welcome to the Daily General Discussion thread. Please read the disclaimer, guidelines, and rules before participating.

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    submitted by /u/AutoModerator
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    Important Updates Regarding Vote Manipulation

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 10:10 AM PST

    Redditors,

    We have an important series of clarifications and updates for you. These have received significant discussion within the moderation group, and we feel that these are important for our subreddit and the cryptocurrency community.

    /r/CryptoCurrency is a subreddit where people can participate in a quality discussion regarding a wide range of activities and coins. One important aspect of this avoiding vote manipulation. This is when one community actively encourages people to manipulate the votes, comments, and presence on our subreddit. This process is against Reddit's rules, and our subreddit takes meaningful action to make sure a diverse set of projects are represented.

    In addressing these concerns, we have made the following changes:

    1. Posts on the frontpage are significantly less likely to be marked controversial, locked, and manually sorted. These changes have been active for some time, and you should have already seen an improvement. We are monitoring several posts on a case-by-case basis to make sure very few posts have action taken against them, and that these actions do not unfairly target certain communities.

    2. We have undertaken an active role in communicating with other subreddits and cryptocurrency communities. This allows us to effectively communicate our policies, listen to feedback, and more quickly respond to grievances. When we work together, we can improve the entire cryptocurrency ecosystem.

    3. We have created /r/CryptoCurrencyMeta, where users can politely discuss possible rule changes and make recommendations. Make sure to read the guides on the subreddit there before posting or commenting.

    4. We have decided to take action against certain projects that purposefully manipulate the content on our subreddit. While /r/CryptoCurrency is a place for all project discussion, this mission is undermined if a specific few unfairly control this narrative and drone out other discussion.

    The rest of this post will discuss what action we have taken against one project in particular: VeChain (VEN).

    VeChain has used their official channels to attack this subreddit. Admins in their channels directly link to posts here in /r/CryptoCurrency and elsewhere, asking their followers to upvote and comment on content. They ignore others' attempts to promote the same brigading behavior.

    We were tipped off to this violation of rules through the moderation communication system we set up as described in #2. We then joined these communities and collected substantial evidence. The moderation team collected, examined, and deliberated on evidence from admins and other users in the official chat. We concluded the evidence was significant, so we decided to take action.

    The moderation team has laid out the following plan of action for communicating with projects if there is evidence of brigading:

    1. Collect evidence of brigading.

    2. Politely communicate with the platform moderators/admins, making sure they understand the rules when linking to our subreddit.

    3. Make sure that the team makes progress in 1) not asking for upvotes and using no-participation mode, 2) removing posts from other members encouraging brigading, and 3) making clear that brigading is unacceptable.

    We have used this process to communicate with other communities with positive impact. So far every community we spoke with was very polite and happily agreed to work with our community to reduce brigading. Save for one.

    A representative from the moderation team sent a cordial message to admin representatives of the official VeChain chat, reminding them of the rules and asking to work with them towards a better cryptocurrency ecosystem.

    In response, the representative was banned from the community, and an admin responded with the following message:

    You expect us to mod according to some other community's wishes? We can't change what people post. Reddit is not an omni-God, mr. [SURNAME].

    We don't wish to tell other groups how to moderate their individual community groups. However, if they operate their communities with the intent of attacking and manipulating ours, we must take action.

    Based on the history of brigading we have seen from the VeChain community and their complete unwillingness to cooperate, we are hereby prohibiting discussion regarding VeChain on this subreddit and our Discord for one month.

    We will continue to try and communicate with this community to communicate our standards. If we believe that progress is being made, we will lift some restrictions. Otherwise, we can decide to continue them.

    We hate to have to do this at all. Unfortunately, it's the only way that we can currently make sure that this community isn't unfairly dominating the subreddit. Those who wish to discuss VeChain are able to in /r/VeChain.

    This post is purposefully locked. Please place your constructive comments in the identical post in /r/CryptoCurrencyMeta.

    submitted by /u/CryptoCurrencyMod
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    Don't worry he's just eating the grass, once it's gone he'll go for the leaves

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 08:02 PM PST

    United States Will Protect Cryptocurrencies, the technology and the Investors

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 05:46 PM PST

    Unlike China.......

    Ignore news designed to get your attention and to promote fear. America never suppresses Innovation.

    Innovations start and flourish in America.

    When they (the banks and recent crackdown on customers) fear you, they try to suppress you. But wait, innovation always wins.

    Highlights from tomorrow's testimony from Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman-

    1. "These warnings are not an effort to undermine the fostering of innovation through our capital markets –America was built on the ingenuity, vision and spirit of entrepreneurs who tackled old and new problems in new, innovative ways. Rather, they are meant to educate Main Street investors that many promoters of ICOs and cryptocurrencies are not complying with our securities laws and, as a result, the risks are significant."

    2. "Through the years, technological innovations have improved our markets, including through increased competition, lower barriers to entry and decreased costs for market participants. Distributed ledger and other emerging technologies have the potential to further influence and improve the capital markets and the financial services industry. Businesses, especially smaller businesses without efficient access to traditional capital markets, can be aided by financial technology in raising capital to establish and finance their operations, thereby allowing them to be more competitive both domestically and globally. And these technological innovations can provide investors with new opportunities to offer support and capital to novel concepts and ideas."

    3. "Said simply,we should embrace the pursuit of technological advancement, as well as new and innovative techniques for capital raising, but not at the expense of the principles undermining our well-founded and proven approach to protecting investors and markets."

    Highlights from Commodity Futures Trading Commission Chairman

    1. "Traditionally, there has been a need for a trusted intermediary – for example a bank or other financial institution – to serve as a gatekeeper for transactions and many economic activities. Virtual currencies seek to replace the need for a central authority or intermediary with a decentralized, rules-based and open consensus mechanism. An array of thoughtful business, technology, academic, and policy leaders have extrapolated some of the possible impacts that derive from such an innovation, including how market participants conduct transactions, transfer ownership, and power peer-to-peer applications and economic systems."

    2. "...In fact, virtual currencies may be all things to all people: for some, potential riches, the next big thing, a technological revolution, and an exorable value proposition; for others, a fraud, a new form of temptation and allure, and a way to separate the unsuspecting from their money."

    3. "The CFTC and SEC, along with other federal and state regulators and criminal authorities, will continue to work together to bring transparency and integrity to these markets and, importantly, to deter and prosecute fraud and abuse. These markets are new, evolving and international. As such they require us to be nimble and forward-looking; coordinated with our state, federal and international colleagues; and engaged with important stakeholders, including Congress."

    4. "We are entering a new digital era in world financial markets. As we saw with the development of the Internet, we cannot put the technology genie back in the bottle. Virtual currencies mark a paradigm shift in how we think about payments, traditional financial processes, and engaging in economic activity. Ignoring these developments will not make them go away, nor is it a responsible regulatory response. The evolution of these assets, their volatility, and the interest they attract from a rising global millennial population demand serious examination."

    5. "With the proper balance of sound policy, regulatory oversight and private sector innovation, new technologies will allow American markets to evolve in responsible ways and continue to grow our economy and increase prosperity. This hearing is an important part of finding that balance."

    Edit: I am adding the link to the documents posted on US Senate Commission on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Website (https://www.banking.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2018/2/virtual-currencies-the-oversight-role-of-the-u-s-securities-and-exchange-commission-and-the-u-s-commodity-futures-trading-commission)

    submitted by /u/yudhidel
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    I will tell you exactly what is going on here, this is critical information to understand if you are going to make money in this space. How prices work, and what moves them - and it's not money invested/withdrawn.

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 09:21 AM PST

    /edit: Hi /r/all. While I have your attention, I want to take 5 seconds of your time and bring some exposure to sustainable living, regenerative agriculture, where we get our food from, and how we can make sure that our kids and grandkids have something left once we leave.

    Please consider reading up on Permaculture, sustainable living, Forest gardening, Backyard Chickens, etc.

    Bored for a night? Go watch "Sustainable" on Netflix.

    Look into people like Geoff Lawton, Mark Shepard, Sepp Holzer, these people are going to save us.

    This is a link to Permaculture Principles which offers a solution to living in a sustainable way on this planet

    Plant a fruit tree.

    If everyone reading this planted a fruit tree, or even some wild flowers, we could save the bees.

    While you are at it, planting a fruit tree has been shown to be one of the best investments on the planet. There's pretty much no investment on the planet that is more financially lucrative (while still being nearly bullet-proof safe) than planting a fruit tree.

    You can get a tree at an end of sale auction for literally 5-10 bucks, and that tree will produce THOUSANDS of dollars of fruit for you in it's lifetime. Go spend $200 bucks at an end of season sale, plant 10-20 trees (if you have room), and that $200 will be worth tens of thousands of dollars of saved money.

    Do it right, plant it right. Go learn how, or ask me. If you do it right, it's zero work after you have planted and wood-chipped, and all you do is pull dollars off a tree.

    While I still have your attention, if you want to read other thoughts on why crashes are important for market stability, I'd like to shill you on this other post of mine here

    Original post starts below. I apologize for the shilling of Permaculture, but I think loss of topsoil will impact us all if we don't reverse it soon. We need soil, we need bees, we need food. We need to stop buying December Bananas in Canada. We need to start supporting local permaculture sustainable farms. We need to do this or we may not make it, and our grandkids stand no chance.

    Back to crypto...

    I've made a similar post in a few spots, and this is something that is absolutely critical for people to understand... what impacts price, and what is going on lately. Price has only a very minor correlation with money invested, and a major correlation with opinion.

    ... and Humans are an emotional bunch.

    So what drives price of any commodity, crypto, gold, pizzas, whatever? The money invested in it, right? Kind of, but not really. What if I told you that you could theoretically raise bitcoin from $15k to $20k by spending $1, and lower it from $25k to $1k by spending the same $1? Crazy right?

    AN EXAMPLE

    This is going to start out slow, I want to make sure I get everyone on the same page before I pick things up and lift the curtain. Stick with me here....

    This is an example to help illustrate why prices aren't driven by money invested, but rather consensus and opinion. Lets imagine the following exists (we will use bitcoin as an example, but this is how everything on the planet works)

    Lets say Bitcoin is currently priced at $10k (the last sale). From $11k to $99k, every $1k there is someone with a sell order of 1 full bitcoin. From $9k to $1 dollar, every $1k on the way down there is someone with a buy order of 1 full bitcoin.

    So, right now if you wanted to buy bitcoin you have several options... meet the lowest seller's price of $11k, or, put your own buy order up, above the highest buyer's bid order (overcut them). If you decide to just place an order, the price doesn't change. If you decide the buy the $11k bitcoin, now bitcoins value is $11k, with a new lowest sell offer of $12k, and a highest buy bid of $10k. Someone else comes in an overcuts the buy bid and puts 1 BTC for sale for $11k. No trades are made until someone matches a buy/sell.

    Okay, that's kindergarten stuff, most people here understand that. So how much money drove the price up in this situation? $11k, and BTC price raised 11/10, 1.10, or 10% from the last sale. Now the entire marketcap of BTC raised 10% (last sale multiplied by circulating supply). So it takes $11k to drive a 10% increase, right? Not at all. Lets look at what happens when news is released.

    News comes out that Warren Buffet thinks bitcoin is a scam, a bubble, and he wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole because he only invests in things he understands and he doesn't understand crypto. People panic everywhere, and believe "this guy is smart, I'm overvaluing this thing".

    Suddenly people don't want to buy this scam anymore, and the buy orders for $11k, $10, and $9k are taken down.

    At the same time, the people wanting to sell start to panic and just want out. The guy at $32k (who just had that offer up "just incase it moons") drops down to $11k sell order. The guy at $12k, who was the lowest, now undercuts him to $10k.

    The other buyers see the sellers undercutting and think that if these people want out, why am I buying in. The $8k guy pulls his offer, and so do the $7k, $6k and $5k guys. The highest offer is now $4k.

    The sellers panic further and the $14k guy undercuts the $10k guy and puts up a $9k sell. The $15k, 17k and 11k guys all see this flurry of panic and now a storm undercutting is triggered, to $8k, $7k, and $6k. The $8k order pulls his again and goes down to $5k.

    The price on the buy and sell orders has moved around a ton, but no sales have actually happened yet. Technically, BTC is still "worth" $11k, and the market cap reflects that. All this horseshit has happened, and it only happened in 10 seconds, but the price hasn't moved yet.

    The $27k guy wakes up and checks his phone. He had a $27k offer just incase the price moved also, and he also only has a tiny infinitesimal fraction of a BTC. Well, he decides "he's out" and fills $1 worth of the part of the $4k guys buy offer.

    The latest price information is now updated, and BTC fell from $11k to $4k price per BTC with the movement of a single dollar.

    This is exaggerated example, but this is what moves price. Not money in vs money out. The ONLY THING that moves price is perception.

    OPINION FLOW AND NOT MONEY FLOW

    Now the above example only happens if everyone simultaneously believe the same thing... this thing is shit. What happens in reality is there's no black and white, it's shades of gray. It's flow in vs flow out. But not MONEY, but rather OPINIONS.

    If 66% of the holders of something all of a sudden unanimously decide that their asset is overvalued, then they panic sell. Even if 33% of the people decide they are going to buy up as much as these panic sellers sell, if the panic is strong enough, and they are slitting eachother's throat to sell, then the buyers just happily sit and let them do that, and time their buys in. Very little money has to actually change hands in order for this price to crash, all that matters is the FLOW OF OPINION has to be swift and violent, and in majority. The sellers will leapfrog eachother on the way down, faster than the buyers scoop up their sales, and the net result is a crashed price.

    So now what happens?

    Time goes by and all holders opinions of their asset hasn't changed. They still think it's worth $11k and they got great deals scooping up these sellers selling. Now news releases start coming out about how stock ETFs are being created, NASDAQ index funds, bank support, government support. Companies are using this tech, and companies who use blockchain for transportation are putting non-blockchain companies out of business.

    The people on the outside looking-in feel they are missing out. They now start coming in and buying. They start overpricing eachother on their buy orders, and eventually it gets close enough to a sell order that someone decides they are just going to meet the sell price. The sale goes through.

    Sellers (HODLERs) see this action, and they start pulling sell orders off the table almost as fast as they fill. Sure some trades go through, and incoming money is driving the price up as market orders are filled. But what's also happening is people are seeing this flurry of volume, and sellers are pulling sell orders and placing them higher.

    Money is coming in, but more importantly, OPINION IS CHANGING. Literally nothing could have happened in terms of fundamentals, partnerships, etc... this can all be driven entirely emotional, so long as it's wide-spread and strong. Infact, the market could THEORETICALLY rebound in this way from $4000/BTC to $1 MILLION PER BITCOIN by the sale of ONE PENNY.

    WHO HAS THE POWER?

    For example, if every sell order was removed and replaced at $1 million / BTC, and everyone refused to sell until this price (and no undercutting happened on the sell side), then buyers are just sitting there overcutting eachother, leapfrogging and closing the gap. So long as overall opinion remains strong, then it becomes up to the buyers to decide if they are willing to pay, how much they are willing to pay, etc.

    The sellers are making their stand, and all the power is in the buyers hand, meet it or don't.

    Eventually someone on one of the sides capitulates and a sale happens. Then people see this "new fair value" and they start setting up buy/sell orders in and around that price. Flow in and flow out are determined, for both:

    1) How hard buyers are pushing through sell orders, and how hard sellers are pushing through buy orders (money in vs money out)

    but ALSO, and often more importantly, especially on crashes

    2) How frequent people are pulling unmet buy and sell orders off the table and replacing them with new ones to make more money, based on their OPINION on where this is going.

    SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS?

    A lot of new money has come in, and they don't really know what they are investing in. Sure a lot of new money has come in and done great research, are smart investors, and are buying solid tech. Most people, to be quite frank, they are buying Symbols and Names and trading on speculation.

    These people came in because their OPINION has been heavily influenced in Nov, Dec, Jan, and they saw this money making machine. They were willing to pay huge, ride the wave up, keep buying, etc. They were "ground floor adopters" and were going to get rich.

    They outnumber the old money by A LOT. Their OPINION MATTERS. It matters the most.

    They are also a VAST MINORITY of "new money" that will enter the game in the next decade.

    Their opinion rose nearly unbounded and price rose accordingly. Market cap rose from 10B to 750B, and it could have been VERY LITTLE actual money that did this. How much did it need to be though? Literally ONE PENNY, theoretically. All that matters in moving price is MOMENTUM OF OPINION. I believe it has been estimated that as low as 6B USD was responsible for the bull rush.

    These people then started hearing "Bubble", "Scam", Fake news about governments banning. They don't understand how technology wins, always. Crypto is beyond government control. If they could have stopped Bitcoin they would have done it already.

    WHO IS DRIVING ALL THIS?

    Most investment opportunities go first to "accredited investors". You need to have multimillions in order to get in on the ground floor for most stock IPOs, and we're seeing that start to happen with coin ICOs. Bitcoin was a joke for the first few years, while lunatics picked it up. At this point, it was really too late to get in "early", and who would have wanted to anyways, it was all still a joke. So Wallstreet, banks, governments have generally watched on the sidelines as average Joes who were crazy enough to be early adopters and toss $100 on fake internet money slowly became millionaires.

    Not only that, but the idea of blockchain started to become understood. The power and value in it became understood. Not only as a way to track "monetary value" but for many other applications as well. Platforms were created, business uses brainstormed, products started being made. This thing started taking off, and wasn't a joke anymore. But regardless, big money wasn't in on the ground floor. They have stakeholders opinions to think of, and what do they say to investors when they lose all their money on magic internet points?

    But they have woken up now. This thing has "popped" many times now and keeps recovering. This thing won't die. could they have been wrong all along? If they want in, how do they get in? They are no dummies, they have been controlling the world their whole lives? Look at the media experiment that Trump is doing? He is testing just how we work... you can do literally anything and we remember it for like 30 seconds, until the next news story comes out. We change opinions very easily. We are swayed very easily. We are their puppets. Media controls the world. They know their way in.

    They have ONE WEAPON against cryptocurrency.

    YOUR OPINION OF IT.

    And they fucking know it.

    Media.

    That's why FUD is so powerful and needs to be respected. It's why we need to read more than titles on news articles. We need to question what we read, whether it's good news or bad news. We need to think about "what are the motives of the person saying this to me". Does the government have a conflict of interest when they state that crypto is gambling? Do they have skin in the game?

    What about wall street? Does WEISS ratings possibly have incentive to come out with poor ratings? Do banks have incentive to lock accounts in order to "protect" customers from "unsafe investments"? Do you think banks have any super secret hidden interest in having all your money in their control? I'm not sure, maybe you can critically think about that.

    Just understand that this goes both ways, and THAT IS THE GAME. Is crypto undervalued or overvalued at it's price today? Where is the price going long term? I'm not talking about it's use case, I'm talking about in the court of public opinion, where is THAT going? Because THAT is what is going to drive price in the future.

    Now it could very well be that the technology having a use-case will in and of itself drive opinion, and thus price. But make sure you understand that it's not the technology itself, it's not the value of the business itself, it's not the use case itself that will drive price, it is the publics OPINION of that thing which drives price. They are intertwined, but they are NOT the same thing.

    TLDR: VERY VERY little money has to move around in order to swing prices drastically, up or down. Money in and out doesn't drive price, OPINION does. How do you let the news you read impact your opinion?How are you being played (on both sides, shilling and FUD).

    Something is only worth what people think it's worth. Often that's based on reality, value, business, money, but often it's entirely emotional.

    In closing

    Do the people who have missed this grass roots movement and are watching average Joes retire earlier than them, does big money who has been sitting on the sidelines, do these people, who control the media have any stake to be gained by crashing prices, to steal your ground floor, early adopter position, on a technology that has the capability to revolutionize the way that every aspect of business is performed in the world? Do they have incentive to modify your OPINION? Do they want in? Do they want you out?

    /EDIT: some have asked to donate some pennies. Just PM me for my info if you want it.

    submitted by /u/Suuperdad
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    The dip is over - Senate Testimony posted online early!

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 12:40 PM PST

    Okay, here is the link for the hearing tomorrow. Note the two PDF documents that have their testimony pre-written out.

    https://www.banking.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2018/2/virtual-currencies-the-oversight-role-of-the-u-s-securities-and-exchange-commission-and-the-u-s-commodity-futures-trading-commission

    https://www.banking.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/d6c0f0b6-757d-4916-80fd-a43315228060/A2A6C1D8DDBB7AD33EBE63254D80E9E3.giancarlo-testimony-2-6-18b.pdf

    https://www.banking.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/a5e72ac6-4f8a-473f-9c9c-e2894573d57d/BF62433A09A9B95A269A29E1FF13D2BA.clayton-testimony-2-6-18.pdf

    They basically say, hey ICO's need to be watched so people don't get scammed, but cryptos are spurring technilogical growth and must be protected. In short, it's good news and no crazy regulations!

    submitted by /u/Novandamis
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    Taking the loss

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 02:33 PM PST

    If you see this face...

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 03:06 PM PST

    My journey through crypto investing so far.

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 10:26 PM PST

    Goodbye to my Bank who will not let me purchase Crypto - You should all do the same!

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 02:15 PM PST

    Hey All, today for the first time Bank Of America blocked all transactions of mine for both credit and debit (and ACH) to - Bitstamp, Coinbase, and Abra (yes, an awful app). I called them and they said they do not allow purchases of other "currencies" and are starting to monitor.

    So what did I do?

    I called them and told them I was liquidating my entire account and to close everything out including my credit card ad I let them know why. I encourage everyone to do the same as they begin to block us more and more and let them know why. Banks are intended to hold our money not decide where and when we spend it.

    That being said... anyone know a good bank that accepts Crypto purchases?

    submitted by /u/wyattayars
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    Bitcoin may NEVER return to previous heights, and a lot of you are worrying me.

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 02:44 PM PST

    I see a lot of people excited about cryptocurrency buying into these low prices. This is a generally good strategy, but I would posit this is not a good strategy for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is an asset we really don't understand. Further, it's not the only asset of its kind, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, there are FAR better alternatives already in existence.

    Trying to dollar cost average on Bitcoin could very well end up with you not only trying to catch a falling knife, but repeatedly stabbing yourself in the foot with it while several of us around you happened to put our money in newer technology.

    All I'm trying to say with this post is this:

    This could very well be the beginning of a major move away from "silly" money (pouring billions into Bitcoin, something that is worth what it is ONLY because it was the first, and for literally no other reason), and very much so a move towards investing in projects with better technology. If this is the case, which I suspect it could be, those of you deciding to hold onto Bitcoin could have an extremely unpleasant outcome.

    Edit: People calling me an idiot, asking if I'm being sarcastic. I'm truly not. If you haven't looked into the many interesting projects happening in this area as we speak, I suggest you do so. If you think that Bitcoin adds a value proposition that none of the other "coins" can offer, please enlighten me.

    Edit2: I'm a computer science guy who enjoys graph theory and cryptography; I actually read the whitepapers most of you gloss over. I'm not saying this as a "Bitcoin hater", but rather as a technology and theory enthusiast within the space.

    Edit3: BILLIONS of dollars are being sucked out of the market as we speak. The market cap is currently only at 300 billion dollars. It was over 800 billion at one point. The cryptocurrency space is vastly different than it was one year ago. When this money re-enters the market, it may not be in a similar manner as of last time.

    Edit4: Market cap is not a 1-to-1 pairing with actual invested fiat. Market cap = price of coin * shares in existence. I should have clarified further, that not only is the market cap rapidly dropping, but if you look at the past few days, billions of dollars are being removed from the market as we speak.

    Edit5: I've had to comment in response to many mentions of the price correlation issue. I would expect that the introduction of more fiat/crypto pairs will lead to a reduction in price correlation to Bitcoin. Most alternatives are only available through non-standard means, and so one must go through bitcoin, ethereum, litecoin, or bitcoin cash (Coinbase availabilities) to get coins offered on binance or other crypto only exchanges. This is one of my biggest concerns in cryptocurrency at the moment.

    submitted by /u/theoneandonlypatriot
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    Buy, sell or hodl? Some advice from a veteran hodler

    Posted: 06 Feb 2018 12:51 AM PST

    I've lost 70% of my portfolio, that's in the 6 figure region. But i pulled my capital out ages ago.

    I'm still way up but it's disheartening seeing all that money disappear. It is stressful, even the most hardcore hodlers would be lying if they claimed they weren't atleast a little bit stressed.

    So ask yourself this, were you in it for quick money or because you believed in the future of the technology?

    If you answered yes to the previous, I'm sorry but you're screwed. No one knows when the market will go up or down, all we can do is look at years of history and make an educated guess.

    If you invested because you believe in the technology, and obviously wanted to make some money too, then it's more than likely you're in it for the long term. In this case, you know as well as i do that blockchain is the future.

    This is the dot com boom 2.0, or 3.0 depending on how you think. Back then, people threw money into everything dot com not knowing what they were investing in. Inevitably the bubble burst, but big players emerged who are still going till now.

    Imagine you had a chance to invest in Google or Amazon or Ebay way back then, it took them years to reach the stage they're at now, but if you bought in early, you'd be rich today if you held that stock.

    Right now you may lose alot, possibly everything depending on which coin(s) you've invested in, but if you believe in the technology and hold, they may just be the next Amazon of Crypto, they may not, but you invested knowing the risk.

    If you just chucked money in blindly and fomo'd like some people i know without researching the risks, buying xrp at $3.50 and BTC at 19k hoping that you'd be rich soon...i don't know what to say, especially if it's money you weren't prepared to lose.

    I'm in it for the long term, i can't say I'm not worried, but i wasnt planning on cashing out till atleast 2019 or 2020. It took Bitcoin a decade to go from nothing to 6k now. From nothing, to 6k. For each coin. That's in-fucking-credible.

    November last year i had the same amount that's in my portfolio now, and i was over the moon. But now it's not good enough for some reason.

    By the end of 2018, if you hodl, your either going to have less than what you're currently holding now, or a shit tonne more.

    If you sell now, you're losing big. If everything goes up after you sell, you WILL feel like shit.

    If you hodl for a little longer, prices may drop further, but if you sell you're still losing big and you'll feel even shitter if everything goes up.

    The market is down heaps, you can sell your holdings to whales and get peanuts back, but i think the odds of potentially making a shit tonne are better than selling your coins at a 70% discount and possibly regretting it later if the market booms.

    But you'll never know until you just wait this shit out and try not to run on emotions.

    You invested because you believed in the tech, so stand firm and assume you're investment is potentially the next Google or Amazon of Crypto, give it time. You'll either win big, or you may lose big, but you've joined a revolution. Revolutionaries don't just walk away because they lost a battle or two

    In the words of R.A.T.M "you can kill a revolutionary, but you can't kill a revolution"

    Ok love you, bye

    *Edit spelling

    submitted by /u/omegaweapon
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    This sub lately

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 11:58 PM PST

    SEC Chairman's overwhelmingly positive statement on cryptocurrencies before tomorrow's joint hearing with CFTC

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 11:25 AM PST

    Figured the community could use some good news: there are really smart people in really important positions around the world thinking through really important issues because they know blockchain technology and cryptocurrencies are positioned to set the world ablaze.

    Ignore today's dip and give Clayton's testimony a read: https://www.banking.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/?ID=D8EC44B1-F141-4778-A042-584E0F3B9D39

    submitted by /u/NiceTryBro
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    How you feel about the friend who got you into crypto right now.

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 09:03 PM PST

    This is the thinnest ask line I think I have ever seen in the order book. The prices we are seeing are based on incredibly low volume. Real overextended borrowing sellers is my guess.

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 09:23 PM PST

    "All I can say, wait till Feb is over"

    Posted: 06 Feb 2018 01:51 AM PST

    Tomorrows SEC and CFTC Senate Banking Committee Hearing Statements Released.

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 12:26 PM PST

    Here they are:

    SEC CFTC

    submitted by /u/dewdropdead
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    Reuters: Singapore says no strong case to ban cryptocurrency trading

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 10:40 PM PST

    Price of Top 3 coins = 1000/100/.10

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 01:47 PM PST

    Fear not, China is not banning cryptocurrency – Wei Chun Chew

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 06:51 AM PST

    ALWAYS do your own research and consider the source when taking crypto advice...

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 07:44 AM PST

    Wouldn’t mind discussing crypto currencies a little…

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 07:35 PM PST

    Lucyd Lab Blockchain Breakdown

    Posted: 06 Feb 2018 12:21 AM PST

    Right now could be the opportunity of a lifetime.

    Posted: 06 Feb 2018 01:42 AM PST

    My personal opinion is that right now is the absolute opportunity of a lifetime. I feel that some of these coins will never be valued so low again. There's so much happening in the crypto sphere in 2018, so much to look forward to, so much new tech and so many more new investors to come.

    If you can't see the positive out of this crash / dip and you can't see where we are headed...perhaps try and look at things from a different angle.

    Good luck to everyone. It's going to be a great year!

    submitted by /u/RippleMania
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    Nearly all Cryptocurrencies to be treated as securities: SEC & CFTC Testimony with commentary.

    Posted: 05 Feb 2018 12:40 PM PST

    As a basic disclaimer I want to say that I've followed crypto & blockchain tech for the last few years, also investing along the way.

    I believe that there is a bright future for the tech, but the recent downturn in the markets are realizing our worst fear.

    The US Government is going after ICOs, Exchanges and related businesses as they consider pretty much all of the activity to be unregistered securities trading.

    I believe they are taking a very blunt approach and not recognizing the nunances invovled of a digital asset. Time will tell if they are right, but the immediate effect will be chilling of all activities in the U.S. for fear of violating securities laws.

    Perhaps a compliant type of cryptocurrencies will emerge, but this will likely take years and there's definitely a reason why it takes so long for companies to list their stock publically (hefty amounts of regulation and requirements to follow).

    Here is a link to the testimony:

    https://www.banking.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/a5e72ac6-4f8a-473f-9c9c-e2894573d57d/BF62433A09A9B95A269A29E1FF13D2BA.clayton-testimony-2-6-18.pdf

    Below I went through the 10 pages, and summarized / pasted the most relevant sections.

    As a further disclaimer I'm not a securities lawyer by any means, but I think they are being very loud and clear with the message they are trying to convey.

    I welcome discussion and I hope that I'm proven wrong.

    Basic summary: SEC / CFTC consider all Cryptocurrency and ICO activities to fall under securities regulations. They will be going after ICOs and have established a specific cyber unit to address them.

    Form arguments of "Utility tokens" are considered invalid due to the role of exchanges / secondary markets and marketing on gains of value.

    Introduction – Basic summary of the technology and highlighting the concern of how actors have had used the appearances of regulated actors (i.e. stock market exchanges), to pass of unrelated activity, which provides high risk for investors.

    New technology with value, but no rules to govern. Potential for fraud crossing borders which is difficult to regulate.

    Key excerpts and summaries

    Exchanges:

    SEC Looking more closely at exchanges as cryptos they appear to be used as securities. They are incorrectly registered as money transmitters. Not following proper KYC / AML laws.

    None of the current players have properly registered as a securities broker, and ETFs / other products have attempted registration but there are outstanding concerns not addressed, many have revoked their request.

    The SEC regulates securities transactions and certain individuals and firms who participate in our securities markets. The SEC does not have direct oversight of transactions in currencies or commodities, including currency trading platforms.

    While there are cryptocurrencies that, at least as currently designed, promoted and used, do not appear to be securities, simply calling something a "currency" or a currency-based product does not mean that it is not a security. To this point I would note that many products labeled as cryptocurrencies or related assets are increasingly being promoted as investment opportunities that rely on the efforts of others, with their utility as an efficient medium for commercial exchange being a distinct secondary characteristic. As discussed in more detail below, if a cryptocurrency, or a product with its value tied to one or more cryptocurrencies, is a security, its promoters cannot make offers or sales unless they comply with the registration and other requirements under our federal securities laws.10

    In this regard, the SEC is monitoring the cryptocurrency-related activities of the market participants it regulates, including brokers, dealers, investment advisers and trading platforms.

    Brokers, dealers and other market participants that allow for payments in cryptocurrencies, allow customers to purchase cryptocurrencies (including on margin) or otherwise use cryptocurrencies

    to facilitate securities transactions should exercise particular caution, including ensuring that their cryptocurrency activities are not undermining their anti-money laundering and know-your customer obligations.11 As I have stated previously, these market participants should treat payments and other transactions made in cryptocurrency as if cash were being handed from one party to the other.

    10 It is possible to conduct an offer and sales of securities, including an ICO, without triggering the SEC's registration requirements. For example, just as with a Regulation D exempt offering to raise capital for the manufacturing of a physical product, an ICO that is a security can be structured so that it qualifies for an applicable exemption from the registration requirements.

    11 I am particularly concerned about market participants who extend to customers credit in U.S. dollars – a relatively table asset – to enable the purchase of cryptocurrencies, which, in recent experience, have proven to be a more volatile asset.

    ICOs:

    SEC considers vast majority of ICOs to be securities due to the fact that the efforts of management raise their value, and a majority are being traded on secondary markets rather than on their platform.

    Utility / form arguments of ICOs are considered invalid.

    Coinciding with the substantial growth in cryptocurrencies, companies and individuals increasingly have been using so-called ICOs to raise capital for businesses and projects.Typically, these offerings involve the opportunity for individual investors to exchange currency, such as U.S. dollars or cryptocurrencies, in return for a digital asset labeled as a coin or token.

    The size of the ICO market has grown exponentially in the last year, and it is estimated that almost $4 billion was raised through ICOs in 2017. Note that this number may understate the size of the ICO market (and the potential for loss) as many ICOs "trade up" after they are issued.

    These offerings can take different forms, and the rights and interests a coin is purported to provide the holder can vary widely. A key question all ICO market participants – promoters, sellers, lawyers, officers and directors and accountants, as well as investors – should ask: "Is the coin or token a security?" As securities law practitioners know well, the answer depends on the facts. But by and large, the structures of ICOs that I have seen involve the offer and sale of securities and directly implicate the securities registration requirements and other investor protection provisions of our federal securities laws. As noted above, the foundation of our federal securities laws is to provide investors with the procedural protections and information they need to make informed judgments about what they are investing in and the relevant risks involved. In addition, our federal securities laws provide a wide array of remedies, including criminal and civil actions brought by the DOJ and the SEC, as well as private rights of action.

    The statement I issued in December that was directed to Main Street investors and market professionals provided additional insight into how practitioners should view ICOs in the context of our federal securities laws. Certain market professionals have attempted to highlight the utility or voucher-like characteristics of their proposed ICOs in an effort to claim that their proposed tokens or coins are not securities. Many of these assertions that the federal securities laws do not apply to a particular ICO appear to elevate form over substance. The rise of these form-based arguments is a disturbing trend that deprives investors of mandatory protections that clearly are required as a result of the structure of the transaction. Merely calling a token a "utility" token or structuring it to provide some utility does not prevent the token from being a security.15 Tokens and offerings that incorporate features and marketing efforts that emphasize the potential for profits based on the entrepreneurial or managerial efforts of others continue to contain the hallmarks of a security under U.S. law. It is especially troubling when the promoters of these offerings emphasize the secondary market trading potential of these tokens, i.e., the ability to sell them on an exchange at a profit. In short, prospective purchasers are being sold on the potential for tokens to increase in value – with the ability to lock in those increases by reselling the tokens on a secondary market – or to otherwise profit from the tokens based on the efforts of others. These are key hallmarks of a security and a securities offering.

    I also have cautioned market participants against promoting or touting the offer and sale of coins without first determining whether the securities laws apply to those actions. Engaging in the business of selling securities generally requires a license, and experience shows that excessive touting in thinly traded and volatile markets can be an indicator of "scalping," "pump and dump" and other manipulations and frauds. Similarly, my colleagues and I have cautioned those who operate systems and platforms that effect or facilitate transactions in these products that they may be operating unregistered exchanges or broker-dealers that are in violation of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.

    I do want to recognize that recently social media platforms have restricted the ability of users to promote ICOs and cryptocurrencies on their platforms. I appreciate the responsible step.

    15 See SEC v. C.M. Joiner Leasing Corp., 320 U.S. 344, 351 (1943) ("[T]he reach of the [Securities] Act does not stop with the obvious and commonplace. Novel, uncommon, or irregular devices, whatever they appear to be, are also reached if it be proved as matter of fact that they were widely offered or dealt in under terms or courses of dealing which established their character in commerce as 'investment contracts,' or as 'any interest or instrument commonly known as a 'security'."); see also Reves v. Ernst & Young, 494 U.S. 56, 61 (1990) ("Congress' purpose in enacting the securities laws was to regulate investments, in whatever form they are made and by whatever name they are called.").

    Enforcement:

    Cyber unit started. Action being taken against ICOs. Further action to be taken

    In September 2017, the Division of Enforcement established a new Cyber Unit focused on misconduct involving distributed ledger technology and ICOs, the spread of false information through electronic and social media, brokerage account takeovers, hacking to obtain nonpublic information and threats to trading platforms.17 The Cyber Unit works closely with our crossdivisional Distributed Ledger Technology Working Group, which was created in November 2013. We believe this approach has enabled us to leverage our enforcement resources effectively and coordinate well within the Commission, as well as with other federal and state regulators.

    To date, we have brought a number of enforcement actions concerning ICOs for alleged violations of the federal securities laws. In September 2017, we brought charges against an individual for defrauding investors in a pair of ICOs purportedly backed by investments in real estate and diamonds.18 According to the SEC's complaint, investors provided approximately $300,000 in funding and were told they could expect sizeable returns despite neither company having real operations. In December 2017, we obtained an emergency asset freeze to halt an alleged ICO fraud that purportedly raised up to $15 million from thousands of individual investors beginning in August 2017.19 According to the complaint, the scam was operated by a recidivist securities law violator and promised investors a more than 1,300 percent profit in under 29 days. As another example, after being contacted by the SEC last December, a company halted its ICO to raise capital for a blockchain-based food review service, and then settled proceedings in which we determined that the ICO was an unregistered offering and sale of securities in violation of the federal securities laws.20 Before tokens were delivered to investors, the company refunded investor proceeds after the SEC intervened. And most recently, we halted an allegedly fraudulent ICO that targeted retail investors promoting what it portrayed as the world's first decentralized bank.21 We were able to freeze some of the allegedly ill-gotten cryptocurrency assets and obtained a receiver to try to marshal these assets back to harmed investors.

    With the support of my fellow Commissioners, I have asked the SEC's Division of Enforcement to continue to police these markets vigorously and recommend enforcement actions against those who conduct ICOs or engage in other actions relating to cryptocurrencies in violation of the federal securities laws. In doing so, the SEC and CFTC are collaborating on our approaches to policing these markets for fraud and abuse.22 We also will continue to work closely with our federal and state counterparts, including the Department of Treasury, Department of Justice and state attorneys general and securities regulators

    submitted by /u/MonetaryCollapse
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    The dip might end here.

    Posted: 06 Feb 2018 01:06 AM PST

    Hi everyone, I just wanted to share some insight into what's happening. This type of analysis is never sure, nobody has a crystal ball. I just think that a lot of things indicate the end of the bear market, here is my thought.

     

    The order books :

    There is a big buy wall on all the exchanges compared to the sell orders, an example is bitstamp : https://www.bitstamp.net/market/order_book/ This certainly means a small rebound from where we are, it is highly unlikely that we get to 5.5k. It does not mean that the market is going to shift into a bull trend but in the short term we most likely are staying above 5.5k.

     

    RSI :

    Relative strength index is an indicator that tells you if a market is oversold or overbought, this is the first time since august 2016 that the rsi is below 30 meaning the market is oversold.

     

    The SEC hearing :

    The SEC hearing is today and it is very positive, there are some minor regulations but mainly on ICO's. This will legitimize the market in the eyes of big investors.

     

    Chinese new year :

    Chinese new year is on the 16 of February, historically it is a date where bitcoin goes up a little. This could help push the market into a bull trend.

     

    Overall it is a good thing when technical indicators align with the rumors and news, again this is not an investing advice I just wanted to share my thoughts with you.

    submitted by /u/darkpseudo
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